Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Paul Knitter 0:00
For me, one of the most beautiful descriptions of who Jesus is, for us Christians, is formulated by a friend of mine a theologian John Cobb, Jesus is the way that is open to other ways. Jesus is the way, I mean the way, that is open to other ways. I think that that for me, kind of describes how Jesus has enriched my life, given me a grounding and ability to experience a God of love and the God of justice who at the same time called me to be open, critically open, not just you know, empty mindedly open critically open but genuinely open to other ways to other religions.
Seth Price 1:10
So I think most people, you know, as they get out of, you know, high school or college and they begin life. And they find out, like me that religion doesn't really fit into that tight box. And if you're also like me, as you begin to work through faith, and work through everything about faith, you realize that there's a lot of truth in other faiths. And I touched on this briefly, you know, a few weeks ago when I spoke with Barbara Brown Taylor, but I am falling in love with I just want to be real clear, (I) love Jesus, and I don't know that I will ever not be a Christian. But that doesn't mean that there isn't things in faith that are as equally true, or as equally beautiful, that are not my own. Faiths that I'm not familiar with, but they need to be wrestled with. And so that's what this conversation is about.
If you do not know who Paul Knitter is, I didn't either. So he was recommended to me by one of the supporters of the show on Patreon. And so, Paul, other Paul, if you're listening, thank you so much. And to each of the Patreon supporters, a lot of the last probably month or so of interviews have come from recommendations from that community. And so just a small aside, if you haven't yet thought about becoming a supporter of the show, do that because your voice has weight. And you are amongst the most engaged listeners of the show. And I am humbled by those of you that take the time to support the show in any way possible. But back to Paul, Knitter. Paul wrote a book called Without Buddha I Could Not be a Christian, and I wasn't sure what to expect. You know, as Paul and I talked, both Paul's and I talked, there came a point and you'll hear it later in the conversation. I still haven't finished the book because I can't get past the chapter. There is a wall I keep coming up against in chapter five over and over again. And I should probably just listen to the advice that you'll hear later from Paul on that wall.
And so thank you for being here. Let me know your thoughts on this episode, shoot me a tweet, hit me up on Facebook, share the show and say something about it. shoot me an email, find all those avenues to do that at CanISayThisAtChurch.com. I really hope that you enjoy this conversation. Here we are…Paul F Knitter
Seth Price 3:47
Paul F Knitter. I really enjoyed over the last few weeks reading. Without Buddha I Could Not be a Christian. And then I began to realize that you have other things that I've never read as well. And then a mutual friend. Also Paul put us into communication. And so Paul, if you're listening, and I'm gonna assume that you are thanks for referring me, but thank you so much for being on the show. Paul, I'm glad you're here.
Paul Knitter 4:08
I'm delighted to be here Seth.
Seth Price 4:10
So your story is different than most, most intellectuals are most theologians, your story's a bit different. You've been in multiple circles, multiple. You've had multiple influences in your faith. And so I wonder for those listening, if you could quickly, kind of bring us up to speed on the high points of what is made you I guess, the Christian that you are today?
Paul Knitter 4:28
Yeah. Okay. as as as briefly and as clearly as possible is that I was brought up I was brought up in Chicago, in a traditional middle class Roman Catholic family. Which meant my parents took their their, their faith seriously, but they were not inquires. I mean, that was basically you go to church on Sunday. And as soon as the Catholic schools anyway. (Now) out of eighth grade, I had the expect an invitation to consider going to what was called then a minor or high school seminary to begin the long process of becoming a Roman Catholic priest.
So out of eighth grade, I went into the seminary. It was a religious order called the Society of the Divine Word or Divine Word Missionaries. I wanted to become a missionary. And my motivation was that I felt that if I really loved these people in other religions, I had to convert them. Now we're talking this is back in 19…(laughs) 1952, a long time ago, but if I really loved them, I had to convert them because otherwise their chances for eternal salvation were pretty well, nil. And so I went and I began the process and it was a 14 year process, up to ordination. And during the course of those years, I started also to studied these other religions and I began to wonder about them because I saw what seemed to be a lot of really neat, interesting, if not really good, things in these other religions.
Well, in the midst of those kind of questions, I had one of the greatest gifts that God has given me in my life. I was chosen, this was in now in 1962, 10 years later, to go and finish the last four years of my seminary studies, the four years of theological studies, in Rome, Italy, at the Gregorian University. Kind of one of the primary Catholic universities in the world which was a privilege in itself. But I just landed in Rome in the end of September 1962 and two weeks later, on October 11, the Second Vatican Council began. So I ended up being in Rome for the years of the Council and not only that but I was studying at a collegial, a house of studies, where we had about a 24 Bishops, missionary Bishops, from around the world who were there for the council. And so we seminarians talk with these bishops every day. In fact, a lot of them could no longer read or understand Latin and all of their homework from the council was in Latin, so we seminarians translated for them.
(laughter)
And that was part of my theological education-reading all these sup secreto documents, confidential documents, anyway, but that was at a moment when I was struggling with how to understand other religions. And then my Roman Catholic Church, not known to be an especially progressive church., I don't have to make that out. Did make a declaration called in Latin name is Nostra aetate. The attitude of the Catholic Church towards other religions in which it said that we should be ready to look for and experience and see God in other religions. This was tremendous. This was revolutionary, I never would have never dreamed this!
So anyway, that opened up my interest to pursue the study of other religions and to promote a dialogue with other religions. And that's what was the topic of my of my doctoral dissertation, which I did, I had the privilege of then going to Germany to finish my studies and studying under Karl Rahner, one of the best known Roman Catholic theologians. And since then, my efforts have been to carry out the instructions of the Second Vatican Council. We Catholics are known to be very obedient and the Council said you should dialogue with other religions. So I took that seriously. And it gradually developed (into) how to understand Christianity, my own faith, in the light of what I believe God is doing in other religions. And I'm almost finished here, I want to make this too long winded, but as I developed in the effort to promote dialogue among religions, the religion that attracted me more and more—and I can't explain why—was Buddhism.
And so I began to teach, I was now teaching at Xavier University in Cincinnati, Ohio. I have a by the way, I should add this-I was ordained a priest in 1966, in Rome, but it was in 1972 when I returned to the United States, having finished my doctorate that I knew I had to make up my mind whether I wanted to stay in the active ministry. And in 1975, I received permission from the Vatican to leave the priesthood, the active priesthood, but to carry on as a theologian.
So anyway…
Buddhism became the religion that more and more engaged me. And I began to teach courses on Buddhism, I began to find the Buddhist teachers and to start doing Buddhist meditation. And gradually, I realized that Buddhism was helping me understand my own Christian faith more deeply. My friendship once Buddhism was deepening my friendship with and commitment to Jesus Christ. And I just was kind of “what's going on!”
And so I did what theologians generally do, when they have a question…I wrote a book to try to explain and figure out for myself and for my fellow Christians, because I want to make sure what I understand to be my Christian faith can resonate, at least with some other Christians. No Christian can be a loner, Christians are Christians within a community, within a church. And so I wrote this book to see if others Christians, if this made sense for other Christians. And I must say it's been a book that has really enabled me to be engaged with other Christians on this conversation. And here we are doing it again with you, and I'm so happy to be here!
Seth Price 11:17
I am as well. And again, thank you for being here.
I want to tie up some of those loose ends just because the organized part of my brain doesn't like that. So how is it that you became chosen at such a young age? Because eighth grade that's like, what, 12-13 years old? And then you would have been going to Rome when you were 21? And I'm assuming that the math checks out there. If it doesn't that’s fine…
Paul Knitter 11:36
Yeah that’s it!
Seth Price 11:38
So is that like academic based is that they're watching you pray and being like, this guy's got something here or is it the questions that you're asking the teachers that you're being obstructed from, like, how does that even happen?
Paul Knitter 11:50
Well, I mean, when I the decision to leave, is that I left home when I was 12 years old, something I would never advise other young boys or girls to do. But I left home practically and went to this minor seminary boarding seminary and I left home, came home for Christmas and for summer vacations during high school, but after that, I just didn't come home.
Seth Price 12:14
Yeah, I assume with the blessing of your family.
Paul Knitter 12:17
My parents were not happy to let me go at 12 years old, but they felt, you know, Catholics, they felt God was calling me. I felt God was calling me. And I believe that was the case. But it was much too young to start. Anyway, I got started and things went well and when it came time for the last four years of my seminary training they asked for volunteers of people who would want to finish their studies in Rome. I was one of them.
And it you know, they did a lot of things, I you know, I did fairly well in my studies. And so, I was selected.
Seth Price 12:57
The book that you've referenced Without Buddha I Could Not Be a Christian. And so I feel like that is a question in and of itself. And so before we dive into ripping that apart, can I just say why? Like, it's a simple question, but I also think it's deeply a hard question to answer.
Paul Knitter 13:14
Right. When I say without Buddha I could not be a Christian. I am not saying that that should be the case for other Christians in no way. That was just kind of a, you know, it's a little bit of a hype title. I mean, a publisher liked the title
Seth Price 13:32
It makes people pick it up. What’d he say!?
Paul Knitter 13:35
Right, right. You know, what the hell is this guy talking about? But there is something to it Seth. In dealing with trying to figure out what I believe as a Christian trying to figure out who is and what is God for me? How do I experience God? How do I understand God? It's those questions that theologians grapple with, of course, what does it mean to say that Jesus is the Son of God? What does it mean to say that Jesus is the Savior of the world? How do we live out, another question, how do we really live out our commitment to what Jesus called the kingdom of God, the reign of God? These were questions that I had trouble answering and figuring out, you know, despite the, you know, the gift that I had of, of studying theology. And the more I then studied Buddhism and practice Buddhism, I found that Buddhism was giving me insights, providing a kind of a little bit of a flashlight, a Buddhist flashlight with which I could look at my Christian doctrines, and I could look at the Bible. I could understand the books and the lectures from teachers of mine in Rome, and then later in Germany with Karl Rahner for instance. That Buddhism seemed to be kind of the, you know, the glasses I was wearing. But which enabled me to focus more clearly on what the Bible is saying and what Christians were saying. I mean we could get into particulars but I mean, that's the general. And it's not to say, I mean, strictly speaking, I think I could have found such help elsewhere and Christians find such help elsewhere. But for me, in my particular situation, I can't imagine being a Christiag, breaking bread at the Eucharist, every Sunday, praying in the morning, reading the New Testament of the Bible without this kind of this little Buddha on my shoulder, giving me advice and opening up possibilities, something like that Seth. I don't know if that's clear…
Seth Price 16:00
No, it is clear.
Paul Knitter 16:01
If I may just just add this Seth, what I think I experienced is precisely what this I think the Second Vatican Council and many other Christian theologians-Catholic and Protestant-are saying is the advantage of inter-religious dialogue. That studying and exploring and another religion is an opportunity given to us, I think by God and by the Holy Spirit, by which we can understand our own self. You know, a, a mentor of mine, a theologian now dead, Raimon Panikkar, and a good friend, he was once said,
to answer the question who is my God? I have to ask the question, who is your God?
In other words, hearing from you about who is your God will help me understand who is my god and we're talking about the same God of course, but different understandings of God.
Seth Price 16:59
Do you feel like this might be an unfair question, Paul, “Catholics” big C Catholics in general. Do you feel like they've leaned into Vatican II of engaging into other faiths? Or that it was just lip service?
Paul Knitter 17:17
Oh no, no. I think I think that it is an openness to other religions and an eagerness and effort to engage other religions in conversation and in cooperation, I think that is something that characterizes a significant percentage of Roman Catholics. Not that all of them are engaged, but this openness. Maybe I'm being too too optimistic here. Because there are a lot of very I don't know what word to use more traditional Catholics, as I was traditional, up to the Second Vatican Council and believing that not only was Christianity the only one true religion, but only the Catholic Church was the one true Church, Christian church. You know I think they're moving beyond that.
And I must say that the the Vatican itself under Pope Paul VI who was the Pope after the Vatican Council, and and then again, under John Paul II, the Vatican itself has a special special Commission for the promotion of inter religious dialogue. So it's both institutionally, as well as more popularly our pastorally, I think openness to other religions is something that is growing.
Seth Price 18:49
In chapter two, or I think you did three chapters on Nirvana and the concepts around those and so I think from memory, I have the book in front of me, but I'm not gonna cheat Nirvana and the gods Nirvana and God the personal other two questions about each other? And this is the question that I emailed you as an example of one of the questions, but I have two questions. So I had crowdsource some questions on Facebook and a friend of mine had said, and I want to make sure I quote him correctly. He wanted to know kind of why you think humanity needs “people groups” to hate or to loathe? Where does that route stem from, to distinctly classify people as other? And then that kind of relates to the question that I sent you where, you know, there's a section in your book where you talk about anthropomorphism, and that that problem especially comes to terms when we talk about evil. And then you say that there's a Buddhist friend that would say, well, what's the problem for us there is no God and so there's therefore no person and there's no problem. And so I don't understand kind of, you know, how that has to do with the crux of everything. Anthropomorphism and how we classify other people as “other”.
Paul Knitter 20:04
Yeah. That’s a pretty big question there Seth! It's three more
Seth Price 20:06
There's a tiny question.
Paul Knitter 20:09
(laughter) I don't know, they're two distinct questions. So they're related, of course, maybe to start with anthropomorphism and God? Because this is an area where Buddhism has helped me retrieve what I think is an important, but often neglected, part of our Christian tradition, namely the mystical tradition. But for Buddhism, you know, it is not correct to say that Buddhism simply denies the existence of God and is therefore an atheistic religion. You hear that said sometimes, and that I think is entirely inaccurate, and incorrect. Buddhists don't have an understanding of ultimate reality. Seth, I'm going to use that word for a moment rather than use the word God I'm going to use the word “the ultimate reality”, namely, the source of our existence, the Sustainer of our existence, that which grounds everything.
Buddhists don't talk about that reality in terms as a “someone” or as “something”. They're very reluctant to use such language of ultimate reality in an anthropomorphic language is saying God is a father or God is a he or God is a mother or a God is a creator. They, for them, using such language runs the risk of diluting the mystery of Ultimate Reality, I would say the mystery of God. It forgets that God is a word,l which is really a pointer to something which is beyond all words.
I mean, God is a mystery that none of us can ever understand! We can experience that that mystery, that reality, but we can never find adequate words for it. That's something that we Christians, especially we Catholics, have forgotten. Because we take our words much too seriously. Catholics have a lot of dogmas, you know, unchangeable truths. So, Buddhists have stress therefore that, “hey, the reality that we're talking about is beyond words and it's better to simply leave it open”. And so they use words like…the one word for ultimate reality for Buddhism, from Buddha is shunyata, which means emptiness. Now that doesn't mean empty-a void-it just means it's it's empty of all all identifiable existence. God is not a thing. God is a reality that is a source of being for everything.
And when I read that, when I hear that, from Buddhism I go, that's what St. Thomas Aquinas was talking about, it seems to me. When I studied St. Thomas Aquinas in the seminary, you know, the description of God that Aquinas gives is, God, in Latin, ipsum esse subsistens, being itself, existence itself, the being of all beings. Now, that's kind of heady language. But the Buddhists don't want to use language that's going to capture God. But what the Buddhists say is that ultimate reality, or what you Christians call God, is something you can experience, you can feel it. You can come to it. Then you say well how?
And the Buddhist responds with the cause of the Eightfold Path. He said, well, first of all, you got to get your moral life in order. If you are hurting other people unnecessarily, no matter what prayers or meditation you use, it's not going to work. So get your moral life together and make sure you're not harming other people: in your words, in your deeds or in your profession. Right action, right speech, right profession.
Anyway, then Buddhism promotes, urges, insists on, some form of meditative practice. Now, some schools of Buddhism stress this more than others, but all of them recognize the need for some kind of medication by which, and Seth this is a very inadequate description of meditation, but it's some kind of practice and it's not foreign to us. Christians, but some kind of practice where you shut up. You just shut up. In other words, stop talking, stop thinking, and just let your thoughts go and release yourself. Just be in the present moment and see what happens. And see what happens. And I think that meditation is also practiced in different forms, you know by Christian mystics.
(leans in close)
And by the way, Seth, I would have to add here as a footnote, we Catholics have a lot more mystics than you Protestants.
Seth Price 25:47
I think that’s why I fall more and more in love with a lot of the Catholic writings, I think because of that. Recently, I mean, even in our email, you know, I'd say you know, I was trying something different during the season of Lent, and you asked…what? And what I find is my Protestant friends don't ask me what that new thing is because I honestly don't think that they know how to handle the answer. But any of my Catholic friends or people that are in that tradition, they're like, Well, tell me what you're doing! Tell me how it’s impacting you! Tell me how you said lectio Divina.
Paul Knitter 26:11
And you said (to Paul in an email) Lectio Divina, and that's a form of meditation.
Seth Price 26:14
I love it. I've been doing that. And I've been doing the Examen. Well, Lectio Divina for just Lent but Examen for almost a year now, intentionally. And I'll be honest, sometimes Paul, I fall asleep sometimes on bad days.
Paul Knitter 26:27
And that’s okay.
Seth Price 26:29
But usually I don't.
I'm gonna take something from my Protestantism that you hear preached every single Sunday. And so if God is something entirely bigger than any image that I, well, every time we talked about God we're talking about a metaphor, always because, and I tell people often, that's what the whole Bible is—it's the best words that I have to talk about something I have no way to describe. And then I'm gonna write it down. And some smart people, hopefully, some smart people will condense it into something that can be passed down to you and me and my kids and their kids. So then I don't want to come off as arrogant, prideful, but I bear the image of God, hyperbolically like, “sure I hear you say that, Paul”, but I bear the image of God, not my dog; Scripturally…not my dog. You know, you'll hear people say that. So how do I wrestle with that? If I'm gonna de-anthropomorphize something, but then also still say that I bear the image of the Divine?
Paul Knitter 27:39
Well, I mean, I think the that's a profound question and it's right there in the opening chapters of our Bible, in the Hebrew Bible, we are made in the image and likeness of God. And now that itself is a metaphor, right it’s poetry. What is it getting at? Well, I think what we, Christians, but also Buddhists especially a Tibetan Buddhists, and well I won't get into all the different forms of Buddhism, but they they recognize that what this ultimate reality is, the Buddhists say, is an interconnecting energy or power that pervades everything; that connects everything so that no thing, no human being, can exist by itself. We exist through this interconnected network of mutual giving and taking from each other. Another word for mutual giving or taking, love. That's what love is. It's l when I give you my love and when I receive love from you, and I feel find that that is lifegiving, both to give and receive. So this inherent giving and taking, this interconnecting, this love. For us Christian, Seth, I see one of the metaphors, one of the beautiful symbols, that we use for that is Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the all pervading Spirit. So, to say that we are made in the image and likeness of God means that we are receptacles of and vehicles for this loving energy that is God's very big. Insofar as a human being really care for another human being or beings to the point that he or she is ready to undergo hardships, maybe even give up their life for someone else. That human being, whether they call themselves an atheist or not, is for me, living and expressing God's life. They may not identify it as that way, because of all the, I think strange, weird images of God that they have heard about. But from my perspective, that human being is living as an image, and the likeness, of God insofar as he or she is giving and receiving, caring, compassion and love for others.
Seth Price 30:32
I wrote this down, and I don't want to come off as flippant. You talk a lot in your book about language and how language is entirely inadequate to talk about God. And I'll use God in the same metaphorical way that we've been using it the whole way. And then you ask a question, and it's one that I underlined and so, I'll ask it to you. You say, but here's the rub that we felt in all the earlier chapters where we're talking about a definition of evil. We're talking about the sunyata. We're talking about a bunch of other things. And then you say How do we understand all of this traditional language? And by that I mean, you know, original sin, and grace and salvation and evil, and church? And then so you say, “how do we understand all this traditional language about Jesus, but for our time? “
So I'm currently Baptist, so as a Baptist or as a Episcopalian or as a Catholic, how do I then break apart or treat well, the relationship between language and Jesus, especially as I do this every single week, and I want to do so well? How do I nuance those?
Paul Knitter 31:38
Yeah, well, it's an absolutely essential question for us Christians, whether you're a Catholic or a Baptist or whatever, because we Christians understand Jesus of Nazareth as the incarnation of the Word of God. You know, the Trinity, the doctrine of the Trinity, the three aspects of divine nature, if we say, Father, Word, and Spirit, second was either Son or Word and Spirit. So Jesus is the embodied Word of God. So we’ve got to take that seriously. And so this is where I kind of get back to this Seth, while language is always inadequate, it is also necessary. Because we're human beings we need we need something to grab us, to stimulate us, and those are words like God is love. Words like God is creator. Words like God “is” is a Divine Word.
So this it stimulates us and it opens up experiences. You see the words invite us to experiences and the experiences tell us that the words are true, but inadequate. Because once you start to enter into the experience of God, the ultimate reality, you know that while words are important, none of them do the job fully and complete. Now, however for us Christians, Jesus of Nazareth is a very special Word of God. We believe that in this human being, this Jew, born some 2000 years ago, we believe that there in this man we encounter the reality of God in a very special (and) distinctive way. A way that once we relate to it and get in touch with it, can illuminate and transform our lives.
So in other words, for me, the Word of God embodied in Jesus of Nazareth is true. Based on my experience, I can say this is God's, truly, this is God's Word. But, now Seth, this gets to be a little more dicey part if I may put it this way because it here it challenges traditional Christian thinking. But while I would say that Jesus is truly the Word of God, I would not say, because of what I've learned from Jesus, that he is the only Word of God. I do believe both on the basis of what I hear in the Bible, but also Seth on the basis of what I have seen in the world of other religions. Buddhism, especially, but also in Islam and Hinduism and of course, Judaism, I see God's Word in other religions as well. Very different words. Sometimes words that might be in tension with the word God and Jesus, but ultimately I see them as complimentary to each other, able to enrich each other.
So this and this, I think that Seth, is the challenge that we Christians, I think are facing today. How to be fully committed to God's revelation in Jesus, to God's Word in and through Jesus, and at the same time to be open to what God's might be speaking to us, in other faiths.
So for me, I love this expression, I think it's in the book somewhere, and I'll shut up then so you can ask some questions. (Laughter from Seth)
But for me, one of the most beautiful descriptions of who Jesus is, for us Christians, is formulated by a friend of mine, a theologian John Cobb “Jesus is the way that is open to other ways”. Jesus is the way, for me, the way that is open to other ways. I think that that for me kind of describes how Jesus has enriched my life, given me a grounding and ability to experience a God of love and the God of justice. And at the same time called me to be open, critically open, not just you know, empty mindedly open, critically open but genuinely open to other to other ways to other religions.
Seth Price 36:35
Yeah. So what's funny is another question that I got is from someone you may know, and I can tell you after the fact I don't want to put them on blast on the show. But so when I hear you talking, and I get it often as well, I find that I'm not able to grow spiritually if I'm not skirting at not a constant level, but at some intentionally repetitive level, dogmas or doctrines that some would view heretical. And so when I hear you saying that, you know, they're Truths, big “T” Truths, in other faiths and Christians shouldn't be so arrogant as to think that they have the world lock and key that at least for the Protestant Bible, these few books they got it all that orthodox Bible is wrong because Maccabees we all know is not inspired. I say that hypothetically, I like Maccabees. (laughs from Paul)
Um, so what do you say when you know, because if I talk to people here, you know, in Central Virginia and be like, Seth, like, you have gone off your rocker!
Paul Knitter 37:33
You can’t say that at church!!
Seth Price 37:35
Yeah, absolutely! Yeah, Jesus is pretty clear. I'm the only one and everyone else is wrong. And as you alluded to, at the beginning, if you don't fit into this small little thimble of people, you're not making it, because you just don't understand why you don't understand. And so how do I how do I both honor learn from but not degrade Christianity when I'm mixing in with other faiths? Because what you'll hear is people saying that you know, will you're lukewarm or you're watering it down or you don't stand for anything Seth! Like you kind of like Jesus, but you're having a love affair with all of these other religions, which I would argue, sure…maybe. Maybe I also have an issue with using lukewarm that way. But that's an entirely different podcast episode for Revelation. But what would you say to someone? Like how do I, if I'm just asking like, how do I continue to skirt the edges of what some would view is heretical? Although what I would call heresy, someone else would call doctrine and what they would call heresy. I might would call it doctrine. Luther was a heretic for the longest time until he wasn't; what 12-15 years ago. I think the Pope then rescinded it. So for 500 years, roughly, he was a heretic.
So how do I do that and do it well? And do it in such a way that I'm not judging the other faith. And I'm not also just leeching truths and then somehow making it my own but not giving any humility or honor to the other portions of those faiths?
Paul Knitter 38:58
Right, right. And, you know, it’s tricky but it's it's excitingly tricky. Tou know, it's delightfully tricky, namely, how to be faithful to the witness that we have, and to the truth that we have, in Jesus and then to be open to other religions without, as you just said, diluting or watering down the truth in Jesus? Now there's no easy answer to that, all that I might say right now is that there are truths that I have come to experience through Jesus that I cannot give up and I won't give up. And when I encounter another religion that contradicts that I want to be open to what they're saying and why they're saying it and what the historical context is. But if in the end, there is a contradiction, my fidelity is to Jesus. Not because I signed on the bottom line and I can't do it. No! Because I find his truth to be real.
Now, but I must say, Seth, that most of these kind of contradictory differences between Christian views and views in other religions seem to be on the ethical level, not so much on the doctrinal level.
You know, what I mean is that there are some, Hindus for instance, who would say that something like the caste system is inherent to Hinduism. And that that's what Hinduism requires. And they will try to, you know, try to explain that to me in a way in which it doesn't seem so oppressive to others. They've never succeeded in showing me how it's not oppressive. But on that issue, I say sorry, but no. There's no way.
Now let's take another contradiction, but this is more doctrinal, between Christianity and Islam, where Christianity says that we believe in one God, who is also triune. That there are differences within God. And we talk about we try to describe those differences. You know, as God as ground or Father, God as revealer, you know, or Son where God is sanctifier and Spirit. And the Muslims, they say, No! One God! Any kind of talk of a multiplicity in God is wrong. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. Because I think there, and I have engaged Muslims on this issue. And we have really found a great point of agreement, you know, where I've been able to explain how we're still holding on to the oneness of God. And they have explained that they are open to recognize a certain multiplicity in God. Insofar as, I’m just giving an example, they talk about the 99 names of God, which really talk about real differences in who God is.
Well, bingo! We’ve got some points for dialogue there. You know, we say three, you say 99. Let's talk.
Seth Price 42:48
Yeah. If you look at it that way, or frame it that way. We only went with three you went with 99!
Paul Knitter 42:56
(Chuckles) And then the Hindus come along and they say 33 million!
Seth Price 43:01
Yeah, which statistically 33 million versus 3, we might as well just be one. Um, I want to end with two things. So often, I don't talk about practice. And so for people A: if you're listening, go buy the book, it is not expensive. I'll link to it in the show notes. And when you get to the chapter on Jesus, I think it's chapter five. Paul, I'll be real honest, I haven't made it past chapter five, which is why some of these topics are all about just the first portion of the book because I've read that chapter six times, and I still wrestle with it. But I always laugh out loud at the Rahner quote, where you quote Rahner saying
most Christians think that Jesus is just God in a man suit.
Yeah, I literally burst out loud every time I read it. But chapter five is really doing a number on me.
Paul Knitter 43:48
Wow. Thank you. Thank you.
Seth Price 43:49
Yes, I don't know what chapter six says. I haven't gotten there yet. Because I need to deal with this first. I just know the way my brain works. So what are some practices that those listening that maybe of any walk of faith, or maybe they don't have faith at all, maybe they want to try something, just to try to become a better person. What are some of those practices that you've gleaned from Buddhism that we could install, either in our Sunday worship, or in our prayer life at home, or in the way that we treat the others? Like, what are some concrete practices? And then kind of where are some resources to, at a topical level, kind of learn how to do this and if we're going to do it, at least try to do it with intentionality?
Unknown 44:31
Yeah. No very, I think helpful and fruitful, questions Seth.
On the level of our churches, of our congregations, one of the things that I talk about in the chapter on spirituality. I think the title is, Prayer and Meditation is, I think, that we Christians, and I'm Roman Catholic and so I'm more acquainted with Roman Catholic liturgy, although I taught at Union Theological Seminary and I attended Protestant services every day when I was there. But I think all of us we’re much too wordy. We make too much noise, during excuse me put it that way, during our services. Whether it's singing or preaching or reading and listen, singing, preaching, reading is essential. We need more time for silence.
Together, silence together, in our services. I talked about it in the book as you Protestants need another sacrament. We Catholics need another sacrament. For you Protestants it'll be number three. For us. Catholics will be number eight. But it'll be the sacrament of silence. And I really think silence is a sacrament.
I mean, sacraments mean these are our external actions, pouring water, breaking bread by which we come to experience the presence of the Divine. Silence is a practice by which we can experience the presence of the Divine. So that would be a recommendation and I've seen some Christian services in India and in Sri Lanka, by Catholic friends of mine, where the Catholic Eucharist embodies Buddhist and Hindu silence right into the time. And it's just, Seth, it's powerful. Yeah, it's powerful. Yeah, and another suggestion, this is more on the individual level and that would be, and there's a lot of talk about this nowadays and so I'm not saying anything that's terribly strange or new, but the way the Buddhists stress the importance of mindfulness, mindfulness.
Seth Price 47:10
And by that you mean what?
Paul Knitter 47:12
Well, first of all, this is a Buddhist act of faith. Buddhists tell us that if we are truly present to each individual moment of our lives, truly present, truly open to it, we will find all that we need to deal with whatever we have to deal with. If we are truly present to the moment, Seth, for me as a Christian they are talking about God's grace, always available—God’s grace. Now but they would say, in order to get in touch with it, this is mindfulness, just stop and recognize your thinking recognize the feelings that you have. And don't let the thought think you and don't let the feeling possess you. But you be aware of your thought and let it go. Be aware of your feeling, whether it's anger, whether it's despondency, whether it's discouragement, recognize it, let it go and just be open to the moment.
There is power in the moment. God has always excuse me, I’ll use a Christian term, God's grace is always present right now. The problem is we're not present right now. And that's what mindfulness is, is enabling us to be present to trust, to trust, that right in this moment, no matter what, there is that which is holding me and sustaining me.
Seth Price 48:48
I wonder if mindfulness has become so more talked about and that's a bad sentence but…
Paul Knitter 48:58
No you’re right! You’re right!
Seth Price 49:00
Because just even if I think back in I'm not that old. But growing up, if I wanted to be distracted, I had to plan to be distracted, I had to make plans to be with my friends or make plans to read a book or make plans to watch a movie. Because shoot just dating myself a bit. It was expensive to get a VHS player much less of VHS. And cable wasn't a thing, at least not where I'm from. I had a UHF/VHF Zenith that you had to tick, tick, tick, tick, tick the things on. But now I can easily, without even trying, be distracted. And so I don't think that as a generation, at least not mine, which is now the biggest generation on the planet, not just in this country, all of them. We don't know how to not be distracted. We operate at a level of always doing four things at once. And I would argue we're uncomfortable with not having constant input. But we don't listen to, at least me, I often don't listen to any of the input. And I know I would tell you at work, I don't work well if there's too much silence, like I need two to three inputs that I can filter subconsciously, to focus on the one that matters.
And so like when I do contemplative prayer or Lectio Divina or something it's really hard. Because I'm still not comfortable with silence. I know one of the things our current minister had installed when he first came is a discipline of silence at the end of each service. And each week, he stretched it out a little further. And obviously, there's some of that worked in sometimes it's shorter if we have to dedicate a baby or you know, that type of stuff. But I can tell you so many people in the hallways that say that that is their most holy part of the service now.
Paul Knitter 50:30
Wow! Looks at that!
Seth Price 50:32
Like I look forward to sitting here at that. Yeah. And that's just three years later, two years later, but it was wholly new. And I remember him preface it saying, this is going to be uncomfortable, but go with me, and it's going to be uncomfortable. But because I'm helping lead worship at the search service, I don't really get to partake in that because that's when I have to get up, get ready to go back on the stage and do the music. So, for me, I have to do it at home, but I don't think that my generation even knows how to be silent and I don't know that we will without expressly intending to do so. But to do so, then makes the rest of the world feel like there's something wrong with us. Like, why did they disengage? Did I offend them? Did I do this? Did I not check my “whatever”?
Paul Knitter 51:10
Well, I just would, you know, the congregational level, so important. But on the individual level, just encourage your listeners, our listeners, you know, just to experiment with 5 to 10 minutes in the morning, if possible, in the morning, where you just sit, maybe with a cup of coffee in silence, and try just to observe your thoughts and let them go and just sit. And I'm talking to Christians, I'll just sit in the Divine Presence. Just sit in the presence. Don't try to think about it or understand. Just sit in the in Divine Presence.
There's a form Christian practice called Centering Prayer. Centering Prayer can be a wonderful Christian way of doing this kind of meditation. I would really, really urge it and a resource. We talked about some resources. Yeah. Check out some of the writings on centering prayer by Thomas Keating, who died recently. And Cynthia Bourgeault can be very, very helpful, I think.
Seth Price 52:29
Absolutely. Well, Paul, I’ve got to end our time because we both have other commitments. So thank you. It is honestly it was a privilege to talk with. I've really enjoyed it.
Paul Knitter 52:41
Oh, it was the delight. Thank you.
Seth Price 52:43
I'm really enjoying wrestling with the book even though I usually try to finish these books before I talk to someone but I, I have to be genuine and I can't get past chapter five. Oddly enough, when you talked about prayer and meditation as a possible response to my question when I said that, that's chapter six. I went to the table of contents. And so yeah, maybe that's my impatientness bleeding through but
Paul Knitter 53:00
Skip chapter five, skip chapter five and jump to chapter six.
Seth Price 53:03
Come back to it. So where would you point people to either in engage with you to get in touch with you? Obviously, I'll have links to everything to you in the show notes. But where would you direct people to?
Paul Knitter 53:15
Well, I mean, I guess the easiest way would be just, you know, through email. That would be I really don't keep up on I don't have a website. I should, but I don't. But should there be questions or so I mean, I'd be glad to to as much as time allows to carry on further conversations that way.
Seth Price 53:35
What's that email address if you're willing to put it out there?
Paul Knitter 53:37
Simple it to remember is Paul@Paulknitter.com
Seth Price 53:49
Fantastic well thank you again, genuinely have enjoyed it. Honestly, though, we could probably talk for hours I didn't cover half of the things that I wanted to ask you about, but that's okay. That's entirely okay. But thank you again, I'd love to if time allows some time in the future. I'd love to have you back on maybe
Paul Knitter 54:05
Certainly; when you finish the book!
Seth Price 54:07
Fair enough.
Seth Price 54:21
Religion and faith is an adventure. It's a call to new things. It's a call to stretch ourselves and to learn what is true. To learn things that make us more whole. Paul's book does that. I wanted to leave you with this.
May your search for peace and knowledge and compassion and an understanding of faith leave you with wisdom and radiating warmth as you're held by our Creator. By the Divine God. By love.
Music today featured is from artist Ryan Ellis. You'll find links to him in the show notes and you'll find today's tracks listed below as well in the show notes on the Spotify playlist for Can I Say This At Church. I'll speak with you all next time.
Be blessed everyone.