Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Drew Hart 0:00
To read Zacchaeus you have to put it in context of the Gospel of Luke, right? Luke's Gospel has an unrelenting focus on economics. He just leans in heavy compared to the other gospels, all of them. Jesus, clearly, in all the Gospels, identifies with the poor and serves them in particular and came up from a poor Galilean community himself, right. So it's not a question but Luke's Gospel is just like an ongoing, unrelenting theme. I've been saying ;and) it’s funny, because I don't know if you've been hearing some of it. But there's been some of this stuff about, “oh, well, that's Marxism” and I'm like Marxism! Have you read Luke or the letter of James or something-these are vicious, right? Jesus has a vicious class consciousness in constantly critiquing the wealthy for hoarding, right, and for identifying the poor, not just the poor in spirit, but the poor themselves as being a characteristic, a condition that is characteristic, to the kingdom of God. And so it's really interesting number one, just when you frame that out in the context of where the Zacchaeus story is coming out of; and you see this kind of theme of Jubilee. This Jubilee ethic which (we are) reviving from like Leviticus right this idea where redistribution and reparations and returning land every seven years a fresh start right that happens, this kind of deliverance that unfolds.
Seth Price 1:38
It's madness, isn't it? All of this stuff happening around us. Arguments on Facebook arguments on Twitter arguments at home arguments about school and Coronavirus, racism, and the church. And so, so, so many things. It is maddening, it's maddening to me anyway. And I don't know what to do with it. I literally drive home from work every day about an hour drive, and I just run things through my head, what could I have done differently? When I see something did I say something, when I'm witnessing things, what am I witnessing? How am I a part of this and how can I maybe repair it? And possibly am I the one breaking it? So the history of race in the church is complicated, extremely. So Megan and I talked about that a bit last week. And this week, I brought on Drew Hart. Drew's a brilliant professor and his work like this last book, Who Will Be a Witness is like 300 page of goodness, and gold, and you need to get it. If you're a patron supporter of the show at the read this book level, you got that in the mail, hopefully this week, except for the handful of you that are not in the country, and it will come as soon as it comes out. I'm sorry for that.
But it is that good of a text like it needs to be read and you'll hear Drew and I joke, we wish that it didn't need to be read and that it didn't need to be written and I don't know how to do anything better about that. And I don't know it's gonna require us all to have some really big conversations about what a witnessing voice for the church and for the people in the church, you and I, and people out of the church needs to look for. Like who will be a witness to Christendom? Who will be a witness at white supremacy and religious nationalism? Who will be a prophetic witness? And what does that witness say?
Before we get rolling, do something a little different for the month of September. And so at recording, this is September 5. And so for the next 30 days, I want to take every single dollar that is made through the store of the podcast, and I'm going to donate that money to #BlackLivesMatter. And I know some of you listening may not agree with me on that. Or you may think it's a term that doesn't need to be thrown around. But it's not something I'm interested in arguing in. However, if there's something that you've been on the fence about, if you buy it now that money is going to things that genuinely matter. As I thought more and more about it, of what I could maybe do with some of the gifts that are freely given to me. That's what I want to do. So consider doing that. I don't know which charity yet, but that will be happening in early October. And so here we go. A very powerful testimony of a life rooted in action. Dr. Drew Hart.
Seth Price 4:40
Dr. Andrew Hart, and that's probably the only time I'm going to say Andrew because I think you usually go by Drew correct?
Drew Hart 4:45
Yeah, I go by Drew.
Seth Price 4:47
Perfect. Well, the email says Andrew, so I just wanted to be accurate, but welcome to the show. Very excited to have you here. Your work I have read off and on for many, many years. So I'm very excited to talk with you but thanks for coming on today.
Drew Hart 5:01
Yeah, I'm glad to be on the show with you and to discourse about things that are very relevant for our moment today.
Seth Price 5:07
And how sad is that, that that's still the conversation that's so relevant? But we'll get there, we will get there.
Drew Hart 5:12
I often tell folks that I look forward to the day where my books are absolutely obsolete and no longer meaningful!
Seth Price 5:20
Yeah. How great would that be? Yeah and that's the case for a lot of topics, especially religious and politically based, for those that are listening that are like, I don't know who Drew is like, Yeah, he's on the show. What are the things that kind of make you you if you were to like high level out and you're like, yeah, here's kind of what shaped me into whatever you are right now?
Drew Hart 5:39
Yeah, it's hard to give the elevator speech of that, but I would guess some of what I would say first, they can think of me as Pennsylvania and boy. I bounce back and forth between Philly to Harrisburg to Philly to Harrisburg and so that's, I guess, been a significant part of my life. I am the Son of Tony and Carol, my parents and I have siblings. year older two years older, nine years younger. I've lived in mostly black communities most of my life, except for, and I talked about in Trouble I've Seen for three years in high school and then four years for college. And so my communities that I've been a part of have deeply shaped me.
I currently am an assistant professor of theology, just finished my fourth year of teaching at Messiah University. We're fancy now we're not at college anymore we're big time. Aside from the teaching that I do, I am deeply involved in a lot of other work, anti racism, work with churches and other organizations. My collaborates with organizers and activists in my city and effect I'm a co leader for a group in Harrisburg that partners with organizing activists and connects them with the church. And so anyway, just a whole variety of stuff that made me I guess.
Seth Price 6:58
So my wife's college was Lynchburg college and then recently became Lynchburg University and I went to Liberty University so now there is two “LU’s” in the same city there. She got really upset when they made it Lynchburg University is there that same animosity there at Messiah? Because honestly I've always called it Messiah college I didn't even know it was Messiah University.
Drew Hart 7:19
It just changed. It literally just changed July 1. Okay, so this is new so most people don't know.
Seth Price 7:26
Was big thing though? Were people like “no, it's Messiah college like this is what it is!”
Drew Hart 7:32
You know. So here's the funny thing as an alum, so when I was a student, there was this rumor that they were going to change the name of the school from Messiah College to Grantham University, and people got extremely offended. “You're taking Messiah out the name”, you know how profane and all this stuff anyway, so I think we're just teasing ideas, but people would. So I think that it's still Messiah University, I think most people probably don't care that much. I don't know. I don't think anybody cares that much.
Seth Price 8:03
(Laughter) I don't know my wife did. Um, yeah, she actually she is refused to buy any merchandise that says alumni on it. Like I have a couple shirts that she gave me to say Lynchburg College and she's got like a blanket. And she's like, nobody sleeps in this blanket. Because I can't get another one like, these have become artifacts and don't touch my things don't break my things. I don't have that affinity towards my alma mater for many reasons, which we can talk about at a different time. I wanted to bring you on today.
You are extensive, and you just referenced it as well. You do a lot of work in anti racism work the church theology. So what do you teach at Messiah University? Like, are you teaching that or are you just teaching like general level courses? And then kind of what if you are teaching that, like anti racism type stuff or the history of race in the church, what's the feedback from the students? Because I think most people come to school and they're like, oh, nobody told me that!
Drew Hart 8:56
Yeah, I teach a range of courses at Messiah College. In fact it's been kind of neat because I feel like I get to express a lot of the different parts of me in different ways. So every fall, I teach a course, that's not a part of my department teaching. It's a first year seminar course. And it's called The Politics of Blackness, black history and intellectual thoughts, a little theology. So I teach it with first year students, we read, you know, historical texts, black intellectuals, all kinds of stuff. And actually, I've had really good experiences with students in that class. I always tweak it a little bit, just for my own sake and it’s a course, where I get to read what I want to read with students right. There's some common texts that we keep going and other ones that we keep shifting. But yeah, I've had really good experiences with that I teach every fall African American theology is that's deeply important for me to be able to teach that course. And I've had students just rave about that course. And so that's those two probably are my most popular courses that teach.
I teach an Anabaptist theology class. To teach have faith in society all these are GNED theology options that students can take who are outside of the major, but I teach upper level, theology II, theology theory, some more standard themes. I still always incorporate some stuff on race. And all of that. Black theologians wellness see loads of different voices mixing it up. I also teach a course every two years called Mobilizing Congregations for Justice. It's a part of the Christian ministries part of our department. So because I have pastoral ministry experience, they kind of thought that I can bring some neat stuff to the table. And so yeah, that's been really cool. I've only taught that twice so far, my four years, but it's a really cool course. I mean, it gets me to be able to kind of tease and expose my students to movement work, organizing work, social change, right, and how that relates to the gospel.
Seth Price 10:51
So when you're teaching these courses, specifically the ones that are about you know, church history and some of that stuff like I would assume most students coming (that) there's an ignorance level there, because honestly, there's an ignorance level in me. So what's kind of that feedback where people like, that's not what, that's not what I was told. I thought my pastors never told me that that's not in my McGraw Hill history book! Like what's that feedback? Because the reason I ask is, I often ask people about like, the youthful generation, like so that in 50 years, your books are obsolete, and my daughter doesn't have to worry about patriarchy, and you know, that type of stuff. But I meet so few people that actually are talking with the people that will be those people. And those are all bad sentences. (laughter) So I'm curious, kind of kind of the feedback that you get from the students there?
Drew Hart 11:36
So most students come in, especially when I'm teaching for first year seminar course. I mean, these are brand new, straight to the campus haven't even been a part of the campus conversation. So they absolutely have no clue what they're getting themselves into. I intentionally kind of just ease the men with history first, just because that's just most helpful. So we start usually from slavery and just kind of move up towards the present. And most times I spend the most time on 20th century history because that's actually I think the biggest gap for folks is actually 20th century history. They have this perception that, you know, the 20th century was just about black people sitting at the back of the bus and separate water fountains, right. And that was the heart of what the problem was.
Seth Price 12:26
Well, to be fair, that's what the one chapter in the history books as it was.
Drew Hart 12:29
Right, right. Right. And so they know nothing about convict leasing system, all the Neo slavery, comic leasing systems, peonage chain gangs, sharecropping, all the ways that black people's labor is being exploited. Some of them never even heard of lynching. I'm still surprised every year. I bet there's a portion of students that don't even know what lynching is, and that it was a means of racial terrorism and control over black people. The ways that we completely just contorted and controlled geography. by race and people's belonging and where they can belong and not belong. I mean, there's so much more I could get into the policies that that white people benefited from from like Progressive Era laws that black people were excluded from that help to grow the white middle class, like all these things, they just no awareness of it. And so it shapes how people come into the conversation.
So if I just ease them in and we just kind of walk through decade by decade, really, most students are prepared to say like slavery is a terrible thing. And so you start where they are already in agreement. And this just kind of like a frog boiling, you just turn it up the heat, right. And you just kind of go with you because it just kind of unfolds organically when you actually looking, giving a close reading to what was actually happening in the history. So for me, I've gotten very little pushback in that kind of work because we're just kind of moving through history first before we engage in kind of intellectual thought and stuff. That makes much more sense once you actually know the history.
Seth Price 13:59
When I went to college I also still didn't learn any of that. It wasn't until afterwards actually, part and parcel I started doing this podcast and some publisher sent me a few books. I was like, what! One of them was Rethinking Incarceration from Dominique. Yeah. I just got so angry. And I talked to some I have some good friends that are black. And it's turned into some beautiful conversations since and some hard conversations. So I want to roll it back towards the church, especially, I guess, in that 19th century since that, so much of that impacts where we live in right now and maybe even even go back before that. What's kind of the churches, here's set some context. You know, we got George Floyd, we got Ahmaud Arbery, we got Breonna, we got…every three weeks somebody else is murdered. And I'm aware that that is a charged word and I use it intentionally. And the church has complicity in that. That's what I think. But I find often I don't know how to adequately articulate that. And it was actually with a recent interview. I talked with Justin Douglas, and he's like, dude, you should really talk with Drew Hart. Because we talked about it in brief, but not a lot. And so what is kind of some of the history of the church as it relates to, I guess, racism in America, power struggles in America, etc. for you and I today like where did all this fester up?
Drew Hart 15:09
Well, I think the very first thing that we've got to recognize is that the church literally birthed racism, like modern racism, as we understand it today. So by that, I mean like, if you go back to the 15th century, in fact, you go back further, right? So you have like this history of Western Christendom that's growing and arriving. It's basically like Christian supremacy over society, over Western civilization. And during that time, like when you get to like the Crusades and stuff, you have some Papal Bulls that actually are justifying the plundering of lands as early as the Crusades, this idea of Terra nullius “empty lands” right. If it's not Christian land, it's empty lands right. Now you jump forward to the 15th century and you have Portugal and Spain. getting permission from the church through another Papal Bull to not only plunder and steal, but to enslave, and like everything. That's where modern like colonial slavery, conquests, all that stuff starts with Portugal and Spain in the 15th century, and the church is giving theological, doctrinal permission, right to go do that work. Like it's important that we see that Christian supremacy and society birthed white supremacy and society, like it literally mutated into that. In fact, the as the word white begins to emerge over time it actually is a synonymous term with Christian. That's what people mean when they Christian really is they've conflated Western society and Western Europe with Christianity so much, they forget that they are Gentiles, that they've been grafted into somebody else's story. And now they think they have a copyright over it and that if anybody wants to become Christian, you come through us, right? We have a copyright on Christianity on the Bible on interpreting the Bible and on Jesus Himself, right.
And so white supremacy is a theological problem first before we can even call it a sociological problem. We birthED the problem. And so there's a difference between like, broader ethnocentrism, or tribalism, and different power dynamics, in group out group things, that have always existed. But modern racism, as we know it today, grew out of so called Christian societies that created hierarchies. Now, you could argue that some of the work was first that colonial Christian language. Then there was the within those societies pseudo scientific arguments that are being made, but they're being made within still the logics of Christianity, a diseased Christianity, as Jennings would say, but nonetheless Christianity and so, these are distorted theologies that reorder creation, right? It's literally where Europeans are deemed superior and beauty worth and value and intellects and morality. The African is at the bottom of that hierarchy and other people are kind of scattered.
And so I think that if we're going to talk about racism today, in our context, the first thing we have to do is stop pushing the idea that somehow, “Oh, our society so bad and so racist”, as if we just got drugged into the problem, rather than the church created the problem. And so yeah, that would be one of the things. But then along the way, I mean, at every stage, there's complicity involved in white supremacy in our society at every stage. So I think in Trouble I’ve Seen I quote was in the night thing was 1946. So if you think like the 40s and 50s are actually the peak of what people would call a “Christianized America”. The highest percentage of Americans consider themselves Christians in the 40s-50s era time period. Which there's this false perception that there's been this decaying of Christianity for a very long time. But it's actually the opposite is that from the colonial moments up until the mid 20th century, there's an increasing and a Christianizing of American society that doesn't stop until the mid 20th century. Anyway, so in that peak, you have all of a sudden, you know, obviously, there's Jim Crow, and all this stuff that are happening and unfolding in that space, and 7 out of 10 white people in that moment in the highest percentage of Christianized America, whatever that means, right. Seven out of 10 believe that Negroes are being treated fairly in this country, right? In the 40s! Right? We know, all the horrible…the lynching, the segregation, the Jim Crow, the KKK stuff, you know, the exclusion from participation in voting rights, and all of that, right. We've seen the black and white documentaries of just a decade or two later of black people getting beat over their heads. We just talked about John Lewis's legacy. And all that folks like him stood for and fought for.
And so it's baffling to see that are supposedly most Christianized moment is just complete denial of the racism that was just so blatant and literally organized in very obvious ways our entire society, right. And most Christians were quiet and complicit to that. So I think that's just one way of getting into the conversation is just seeing either the perpetuation of the systems of racism or the silence to them and certainly benefiting from those systems.
Seth Price 20:44
One of the questions I wrote down; actually, it's a broken sentence, so it's one that I haven't figured how to voice yet, so I'm going to try to voice it now. So so often, it's two different questions and we can tackle them at different times. So I've found people like myself, and I'm probably sure also myself, you know, when I cross that traverse isn't the right word…that chasm of, I didn't see it before, I see it now. I can't quite put my finger on what I was afraid to lose by engaging in a conversation about race and the church in America. Like, because I haven't lost anything. Like I've lost a few friends, but we could argue they probably weren't friends to begin with, or maybe ones that I probably not should have been friends with, or at least, you know, engaging in deep, meaningful conversations with outside of a tertiary level.
But I think so often, most people, especially in the church, the white Christian American church are like, “No!'“ we, I think they're quiet because they're afraid they're gonna lose something like, like, I'm going to give up something. But then when I look back, I can't find that I've lost anything. I probably gained way, way, way more than I ever thought I might lose, but I don't remember having that mental thought until afterwards. And so I'm curious with your experience, because you travel the country. You talk on this a lot. I'm sure you talk in churches, universities, and etc. your thoughts on that? What do you feel like the church feels like it's going to lose by staying quiet because silence is complicity. If you don't say anything, then you're complicit, like you're an accessory to whatever happened.
Drew Hart 22:15
Yeah, probably what I would say is there are concrete things that will be lost. And there's concrete things that will be wrong, right for white people. Because there is a system in place that was set up and designed for white people, to advantage white people. So I'll talk like in here in Pennsylvania, there's been ongoing struggle around just the funding for public education by the state. So like, we have two sources, right? You have the tax space that funds it, but there's about 35-40% of the funding that comes from the state. And in Pennsylvania for a very long time. We didn't have a “fair funding formula”.
Seth Price 22:53
What do you mean fair funding, like what does that mean?
Drew Hart 22: 56
In terms of a formula that decides how that money should be distributed, so it's not being…
Seth Price 23:01
Okay, so like, if it's in schools, they all get 10% or whatever, is that what you're saying?
Drew Hart 23:05
Whatever method, right, the whole variety of complex things that they're using, but that there's a new methodology that makes sure that it's not discriminatory. Right, anyway, so we didn't have for a very long time we didn't have a fair funding formula most states do. There are a couple others. I think that still don't, but most do. There was enough pushing because they did work in showed that in Pennsylvania, the wider school district was the more likely if they're going to be over funded by the states and more people of color in a school district more likely that they're going to be underfunded by the State, right. And what surprised me like in learning all this, which it shouldn't you know, you'd think someone like me would not be surprised anymore. But I was surprised that it wasn't based on class.
I thought that that was going to be a greater (factor). So like when they did the research, they found that white rural communities, poor communities were also being over funded by the state now they were still struggling. In terms of like the tax base part of it, but from the state portion they were being overfunded. And like schools like where like Kobe Bryant grew up, he grew up in this like middle class black community outside of Philly, you know, Lower Marion, his community was being underfunded by the state.
Now, again, I would say like, there probably were okay, because the local tax base in some ways could make up for it. But nonetheless, there was this discrepancy that was happening across the board that race was the greatest determinant for whether that was gonna happen or not. Anyway, so they got our state to finally adopt the fair funding formula. But what they did was they increased the budget for the state by like, I think was six or 8% (and) put the new money through the fair funding formula and left everything else out of it. Which I consider like admission of guilt more than it is actually fixing anything. So now there's this push, right.
But some of the challenges is, is that, if this is a state issue, like it's gonna take more than just Philadelphia and Harrisburg and Pittsburgh, and some of these largely minority dominant cities to get on board, we're going to need white communities, at least some, to get on board and say this is wrong. And we're going to vote in a way that's actually going to give us less resources, right. And so there is something, there's an advantage, in the system that's built in for many places. Maybe not everyone has this exact problem but it's these kinds of problems that exists, where there's baked in advantages for communities that have already been advantage that it just perpetuates itself. And so how do we create and stop that from happening? So I think those kind of things, but on the other hands, I do think like, it's actually a way better…like to be fully human and to connect with people and the relationships and the richness of intercultural interactions. And, I mean, it's just actually really beautiful, right? And so I think that when you think about, especially as Christians, when we talk about God's reign on Earth, the flourishing of people shalom did that's what we're actually being invited. into and so like, that's the good news. And so, but some people will always hear the good news is bad news, that will always be the case, right? And the rich young man who doesn't want to walk away like he could participate in God's kingdom, which will give him so much a different kind of abundance, right. But he couldn't see that. And so I always love when I hear white people see this as gain, because I'm like, there's something actually there is something to be gained here. But it's depending on your own value system of what you actually think is worthwhile.
Seth Price 26:30
When I say like, I didn't lose much like, financially, it hasn't really impacted me, which I'm aware that is there's a lot of inequality in the job that I have and that type of stuff as well, doesn't mean I haven't worked hard, but that doesn't mean that I didn't start on the second lap of the mile. And then we both ran a mile. And people can argue with me on that all they want, but that's not what we're here to do today. But like when I think about a better education system, like I know, I think here in Virginia, like the the dollars are apportioned by property values, and so the property values are apportioned by the zip code. But being that I'm in banking, I'm well aware because I take a training every three months that redlining still happens in different ways, and that it happened in overt ways not that long ago, in John Lewis's time and Martin Luther King's time. And those property values still suffer because of it, which means the schools and poor neighborhoods suffer because of it.
Drew Hart 27:19
Absolutely.
Seth Price 27:20
But most people get mad about them like, well, that's actually just math. Like that's just banking. Like this isn't political, this isn't a religious, this is not even a demographic and like, this is just raw math. Like we broke the values of the homes and then we said schools get money based on the values of the homes.
Drew Hart 27:34
So many people are baffled, internationally, they're horrified that we would set up funding for education in this way because it's obvious (that) there's no way but if for it to be an inequitable outcome, right. It's designed to do that work. Yeah. And for black people, I mean, you got to like a large percentage of black people still do not even own their own homes. I think it's like a quarter right or some … I can’t remember the exact number. Yes, a large percentage of but that's even less when you have all these renters and certainly in Harrisburg, we have a very high renting population in our city. And so how do you fund education in those scenarios?
Seth Price 28:08
Yeah, this is a sentence that I've become accustomed to using because people at the bank want to argue about politics specifically about the CARES Act and socialism and the president. And it's really hard because I when I have a name tag on I don't have an opinion. My opinion is, I voted for your person. I'm glad that they won. Like, I'm glad they won. But realistically, what I've ended up telling people is, regardless of who's in power, what church is running the shots, what president's running the shots, what school board superintendent is running the shots I live here, I have a vested interest in not only my kids knowing what's going on in 15 years, because they're going to be fully functioning adults, but my neighbor's kids as well. Regardless of race or gender, like, I live here. I need educated people to continue to help society work. I live here. I need things to go well and I need whoever the president is as well. So go because I live here. I've invested interest, whether or not I agree with it, for it to work.
Drew Hart 29:02
I mean, it's very Biblical. When you think about like a theology of Shalom, it's it forces us to recognize that we are interconnected our interdependency with one another, and seeking that kind of harmony and that the well being of everyone is dependent on each other. And to think of ourselves as such autonomous beings that have nothing to do with others. That's part of the reasons why we're in so many of the issues that we're in today is because we don't see our interconnectedness that somebody else’s thriving and flourishing, actually relates to mine, right. And there's ways that I can do it in a harmful way that will perpetuate other problems, or we can link together and both rise up and we can all flourish together.
Seth Price 29:44
Yeah. Thinking of economies just because now we're talking about banking and so I cannot think this but I feel like I've heard you say it somewhere and so I'm probably stealing it from you, but I'm actually not certain if I am maybe I made it up I'm not smart enough to make it up. I'm sure I stole it from someone. But you brought up the rich man and that parable of you know, sell everything you haven't come back and he just couldn't do it. I feel like so often churches in America are addicted to their endowment funds, and all of the money that they hoard and they usually don't give it away. I think as as a church should like they should just take it in and then “oh, you need something whether or not you go to church here, I got you. You need food. I got you. You need a roof, I got you.” Whatever you need to do, versus Zacchaeua is like, Oh, I did this. Oh, and now I've got to forgive everybody. Like, I'm gonna give all my money away because I've met Christ. Yeah, I'm curious your thoughts on that? Do you feel like the church is in a position where they're acting more like the Rich man or more like, Zacchaeus? Or am I taking Zacchaeus the wrong way because I've always read it that way.
Drew Hart 30:40
Yeah, I mean, so to read Zacchaeus you have to put it in context of the Gospel of Luke, right. Luke's Gospel has an unrelenting focus on economics. He just leans in heavy compared to the other Gospels. All of them Jesus, clearly, in all the Gospels identifies with the poor and serves them In particular, and came up from a poor Galilean community himself, right. So it's not a question but Luke's Gospel is just like an ongoing, unrelenting, theme. I've been saying focused funny, because I don't know if you've been hearing some of it. But there's been some of the stuff about, oh, well, that's Marxism. And I'm like Marxism! Have you read like Luke, or the letter of James or something like these are vicious, right‽ Jesus has a vicious class consciousness in constantly critiquing the wealthy for hoarding, right. And for identifying the poor, not just the poor in spirit, but the poor themselves as being a characteristic a condition that is characteristic to the kingdom of God. And so it's really interesting, number one, just when you frame that out, in the context of where does that key a story is coming out of and you see this kind of theme of Jubilee, this Jubilee ethic. Which we are reviving from like Leviticus, right, this idea where redistribution and reparation and give returning land so the new, fresh start, right? That happens and is kind of a deliverance that unfolds.
And so all of that is there. So then you have this that key, a story that is literally side by side practically, with the rich young ruler. And because the right beside they serve as kind of foils to one another. Here's this man who wants to follow Jesus, but he's not willing to take Jesus's command to sell all he has, and follow Him and give it to the poor, right? That's actually what Jesus says “and give it to the poor”. And of course, people because people don't like hearing Jesus talk about that they do all these fancy gymnastics for two means which we build other than what it actually says, right? Oh, it's just a matter of the heart…that's not what he says. But that's, that's what we say. It's just a matter of the heart. So this could be anything now you just decide and once your heart is in a good place, then you're fine. And then you don't actually have to do anything so long as you've adjusted your heart. So you don't have to actually take the action that Jesus focused on, anyways so that's interesting.
But the (in the) Zacchaeus story, you have this exploiter, tax collector, who's exploiting his own community benefiting a part of this system of exploitation. (But) Jesus comes to town, and he has this Jesus encounter with him and his response is Jubilee ethics in two different ways. He says, I'll give half of my money to the poor. And then he says, I'll give four times back what I've taken from folks. So there's redistribution which people hates. And there's reparations which American Christians also hate.
But that's the Jesus moment that he has and that's in contrast to the rich young rulers response, right? This plays out through the New Testament in a whole variety of different ways. So there's not like one singular way I think that this has to look, you look at you think about like Paul and number one Peter says to Paul remember the poor right I in think Galatians so that’s a clear part of the mission that you've got to remember the poor. But what we see with Paul then is there's different regions and some people are struggling and other people are doing well and so there's this kind of almost regional redistribution of wealth that's happening. And he's constantly kind of getting churches from different regions to see themselves as identified and taken care of wealth inequalities and that kind of broader sense. We see in the Gospel of Acts on this radical communities that emerged with the spirit takes roots, and they share all things in common. And then they go out and they cause civil disobedience to get in trouble with the state. And then it come back and they intensify and do it even more, and people are selling their fields and giving it up and come in, you know, it's just pretty radical.
And this is in response to what we see happening in the Jesus story, in Luke. It's the Luke-Acts as a singular story being told.
And so anyway, we could go on and on (on) the radical critique of revelation in terms of just the wealth of Babylon, right. That's Rome.
Seth Price 34:57
…or America..
Drew Hart 34;58
Right, right, exactly, America in terms of how we live. And so yeah, I think there's no question that the church we've lost any kind of concrete, tangible way of actually following the Jesus ethic around money. We do some weird stuff where we make everything just about “stewardship”. And by stewardship, what people really mean is, “Be wise with your money and make it work for you.
Seth Price 35:24
Stewardship is a synonym for hoarding. That's all that that is.
Drew Hart 35:27
Right, it's a synonym for hoarding but in a Christian way, right? There's a Christian way to hoard and there's a non-Christian way to hoard so long as you're giving of your abundance, right. Which is actually one of the things Jesus critiques when he goes into the temple after he shuts it down, calls them “a den of robbers” for their exploitation. Then later as he does his teaching takeover in the temple. He huddles them all together. He's like, watch this. And they see all the people giving all their wealth, and they're just giving out of there's “nothing” and then he sees the widow give everything that she has.
And what we miss, which is ironic that we miss, is previously Jesus actually says, he critiques on the temple for devouring widows homes…exploiting and taking everything from them. Right. So I think like in that moment, what we miss is it's not just a praise, it's a praise and a lament. It's a praise that she has the characteristics of discipleship, and that there's the system that will take everything from this widow, right? Yes. And so we've kind of missed the implications of how to deal with our money faithfully, in radical ways, that are participating in God's kingdom. And it's not a world in which we all then are poor. It's a world where everyone has enough, where everyone can flourish and I think that we've lost sight of that.
Seth Price 37:02
Yeah it's a critique, I've never actually thought about it that way, but it's a critique of the rich people giving out of their abundance of if you would just done it correctly, like the way that you should have loved the people that are around you, you wouldn't be breaking the widow, she would still be giving what she can, obviously because she already is, and everything would just be better. And we talked a minute ago about myself….So here we go….So I feel like often white churches stay on the sidelines because they don't actually know how to take a stand. And so I think that's all the more and more important right now. And, I know that, you know, I've heard you talk a bit about about the way you know, I'm gonna lose, I lost the train of thought…what do you call it? The way that Martin Luther King would demonstrate, peaceful protest…no, is that what it's called?
Drew Hart 37:45
Like non violent.
Seth Price 37:47
There it is! I couldn't think of the word escaped me. Um, so for today, what should the role of the church be because what I don't want to see is all of this gasoline that has been poured into the engine of America to spin back out, and we have to have another social justice revolution. How do we continue, and the church come alongside communities, to take all of this brokenness with George Floyd and everything else for all the years prior as well and actually affect some real change? Like, how does the church both exert influence and power and at the same time, give it up? If that makes any sense?
Drew Hart 38:27
Some of it, we have to understand like, who are we right? Who are we as the church? What does it mean to be the church? What makes church…church? I mean, we can use the word, but not every gathering that happens in the world as a church, right? So what really makes us the church? I would like to believe that the presence of Jesus needs to be presence and following the way of Jesus and participating in Christ together, and not just in the superficial abstract sense, but that we then have to be in unity with the way of Christ.
Like if we're not in unity with the way of Christ we're not being church, the called out ones…ecclesia. Right. And so yeah, I think that's the first thing because the way of Jesus it's clear, it's unambiguous, that Jesus was about prioritizing the least, the last, and lost of society. That's what Jesus did in his ministry, that's God's reign on Earth. He's prioritizing the Samaritans, the vulnerable women, to stigmatized, the sick rights in society, and he's making them central in God's reign. And so the church, if we're in unity with Christ, is also living in congruity with that and we're also in congruity then with the prophetic witness of Jesus.
Again, we talked about, he goes to Jerusalem and he clashes with the establishment. He speaks truthfully with integrity, a prophetic witness right, in the public square about the injustices. Because the temple at that time is the center for everything. It's not just the religious center it’s the cultural, political, economic, everything center for them, right. And they are in cahoots, at this moment with Rome right. I mean, this is the history of that moment.
And so Jesus goes in and he clashes, he confronts, it like an occupy moment right, #occupythetemple, he shuts it down, (he) brings it to a standstill for a moment, which is hard. This is not any small thing. It's the temple, in Jerusalem, of all places! And he knows that there's gonna be consequences. You don't go into the temple in Jerusalem, clash with the establishment…the powers that be, and believe that there's not gonna be a clap back of some sort from from those in power.
So when we begin to actually take seriously the way of Jesus, for our own way of life in the public square, it's going to shape how we engage in our society and respond to these issues, that we are also going to be in solidarity with those who are poor and most vulnerable in our communities. And that our responsibility is not to control the social order from the top down but, from the grassroots, bear witness to something else and have a prophetic witness to call our society to what God desires for all of us, right. Not in a hegemonic or dominating way, but in an Invitational way that God has something better for all of us.
And we're willing to clash and confront and we're willing to engage in the kind of methods…Jesus talks about “the things that make for peace”. So Luke 19 as he weeps over Jerusalem, he says,
If only they had known the things that make for peace.
because it kind of then anticipates just the violence that will come in 66 to 70 AD with the Roman Jewish war, right. So that's like kind of the backdrop of so much of the Gospels is this anticipation that there's this zealot revolution that's going to take place. And Rome is going to come in and destroy and slaughter folks. Six thousand Jews will be killed many more millions, just it just horrifying, the violence is exerted. So Jesus laments that right. If only they had known the things that make for true Shalom, true well being and flourishing. And it suggests that there are certain kinds of practices that are more conducive for this work than other ones are right.
And I do believe that non violence is a social change strategy that is actually conducive with the peacemaking of Jesus, that we see him teaching us you know, love your enemies, and the kind of subversiveness that so many of us miss about the Sermon on the Mount right. The go the extra mile, when, you know, they're only allowed to go one mile, right…for the soldiers. And so it's almost like a comedy in your head like that Jesus is telling like, they're allowed to go one mile and then you just keep going and all of a sudden the power and agency has shifted!
Seth Price 42:59
Give me my stuff back! No I got you. I got you! Where do you need to go? I’m gonna take you the whole way.
Drew Hart 43:01
Yes and the Roman soldiers is like, “No, come back here. Give me that back!”, you know, because he doesn't want to get in trouble. So there's an agency switch; it's a creative, non violent response to this injustice that's happening. And this is the same thing with you turning the cheek, right. It's not about you getting smacked around. That's not Jesus’ point; it is that people don't have agency. So if you're seen as “nothing” and you're slapped across back handedly, that's like a way you slap someone as an inferior. So when he says turn the other cheek, you're slapping the other way, which is actually as an equal.
And so the point isn't that Jesus wants you to get smacked around. It's that in moments where it seems like someone might have no agency all of a sudden they do have agency and can break cycles of violence and in creative ways, strategic ways, right? So we take those kind of small things along with the huge radical action of Jesus literally taking up his own cross and clashing with the establishment and it a pretty clear picture for us as the church that we've got to actually take Jesus seriously in our public action…in our political imagination, not in terms of partisanship, but in terms of God's reign on earth and our willingness to embrace suffering on behalf of our neighbors because we love them and committed to their justice.
Seth Price 44:18
I can remember the first time that I heard that part about turn the other cheek and whatnot so we got a new pastor years ago, maybe five years…, Barrett I know you're gonna listen to this and I'm sorry if I got the years wrong. What's funny is I was on his search committee so I should really know the year but a lot has happened since then. But I remember he did a sermon on that and I never heard any of that. He said the same thing like no you were only allowed to go a mile and then after that, like going further was a way to both be a servant, but also be submissive and the same thing with turn the other cheek. And I feel like and I might be wrong, when, you know you, they asked for your coat and you give them more clothes and you're basically stripping down like naked like a unique clothes. I'll give it all to you. If I need to be naked for you, I've got you. And I might be remembering that wrong, but I remember sitting there going, huh‽ Yeah, never in my life is this ever been preached to me.
Drew Hart 45:04
And it puts a shame on the person that actually end up taking everything from them. Right. And so that's actually a method that people have used globally, women stripping down naked as a way of actually putting shame on those who are oppressing them like these are actually things that actually do happen around the world. And so, yeah, I think we miss, sometimes misunderstand, really the subversiveness of Jesus in some of those comments.
Seth Price 45:32
Yeah, I think that's intentional, because of the way that the church has used Jesus as a way to colonize colonize.
Drew Hart 45:38
Yes, domesticate and dilute his teachings.
Seth Price 45:40
Yeah, I do want to talk about that word domesticate, but use the word zealous a minute ago, or zealot mentality or something like that. I have heard and to begin again, because I haven't read your most current book that comes out. Probably by the time this is I'll put it out around September, why not? Because I think your book comes out September 1. I've heard you or I've read you because I try to do a little bit of research on that. You talk a bit about Barnabas, like a Barnabas mentality…the role of Barnabas in the Gospels.
Drew Hart 46:05
Barabbas…
Seth Price 46:08
Oh, yeah. Sorry. Yeah, I'm thinking of the wrong “B”. Yeah, which made me think and I referenced my friend Josh earlier all the time when we're arguing with some friends of ours. Many of them are more moderate than us or many are just the opposite, or where I was maybe 15 years ago, who just who just yell, give me…give us Barabbus . And he'll just leave the conversation. And so when I heard you say that or read, you say that I'm like, Josh, this is your man right here. But yeah, being that I haven't read it. Can you break that apart a bit about me? Because all I've seen is little two or three segments, like senate segments, but I'm genuinely curious. And I have already bought your book. So I'm going to read so I'm not stealing. (Laughs)
Drew Hart 46:43
I have a whole chapter called Liberating Barabbas. I went all in and have a whole huge chapter on that. And just some of it right, I mean, I get into more detail, but the gist of it is, we've domesticated and diluted Barabbas‘ significance in Scripture. And in some ways we do it, which allows us to further dilute and domesticate Jesus, like there's my argument, right. And so we ignore what the text actually says about Barabbas and then we use him in other ways.
Sometimes he's just characterized as just a wild crazy madman who's foaming at the mouth, who's a serial killer, you know, like the Joker something just killing people for no reason going through the villages, right! And he's just this horrible person, right? Or all these different kinds of characters of him. There's actually, I when I was doing I actually googled and I found like, there's a little clip like somewhere like literally he's like cockeyed and drooling and this crazy laugh that's happening. It's just interesting, like how he's been characterized at times.
So there's this perception of him and then maybe a more fancy way of diluting him is people have used him to kind of push and focus on penal substitutionary atonement, even though that's not what the text is doing that's what people want to do and use him for. So the argument is, you know, Jesus is the innocent one. And so there he's the guilty one and Jesus takes his place and all that kind of stuff. We're all “I am Barabbas!” right. To have that kind of thing. Now it is interesting that the Gospel of Luke is the only one where the language of innocence does show up but it's not talking about innocence in terms of like a sinful life or innocent life, it's talking about the political charges, right? Jesus is being charged with subverting the empire and telling people not to pay the taxes and all that stuff, but subversion. And the argument is Jesus is innocent of these charges, right. Which are actually questionable, because in some ways he doesn't do them and in some ways, he kind of has done it. So it's kind of complicated, right?
But anyway, so it's political charges and we ignore that and we just make it about the innocence of Jesus and the guiltiness of Barabbas so that we can talk about substitutionary atonement. But what we actually find number one, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all four them actually mentioned Barabba, which is interesting. Like there's a lot of things that not all four Gospels don't talk about, right? There's lots of I mean, we only have one true Christmas birth story. Maybe you could argue two and a half right if you include Matthew. But yet, all of them seem to think it's so important for us to have Barabbas at the end of the story. Why is Barabbas so important at the end of the story, right? And what we find is that they're consistent about who Barabbas was, he was an insurrectionist. He participate in the uprising, right? He was a revolutionary, or we would sometimes…sometimes people use the language of zealots. At that time it's complicated, even though the, the gospel writers use the language of zealots. It actually wasn't a thing quite yet in Jesus's time it actually emerges a couple decades later when the gospel writers are writing that that language is used. But the idea of zealots actually were there, like they were groups like that even if they hadn't coalesced under that name yet. There were these folks who wanted to engage in violent revolutionary work, they believed that God's deliverance was calling him inviting them into that work. And so Barabbas represents that tradition, right.
From the Maccabees up till the Jewish Roman war there's this tradition that exists of seeing that we need to violently overthrow and bring God's kingdom back in. So it's clear all of them say that he participant in the insurrection. Matthew’s a little bit different though Matthew actually has probably a more extended conversation around Jesus and Barabbas all of a sudden now, in fact it really actually matters what Biblical texts you use in this one, there's some cases where doesn't matter…
Seth Price 50:39
when you mean “text” you mean translation?
Drew Hart 50:41
Yeah, what manuscripts right there are people are drawing from because in Matthew, some of the oldest manuscripts actually say like, is it “Jesus Christ or Jesus Barabbas”? And then some of the later manuscript seems like they took out the Jesus Barabbas and just put Barabbas because maybe they were uncomfortable with that. But it seems actually that it was intentional…
Seth Price 51:02
It’s a title.
Drew Hart 51:04
Right, well its like two Jesus's right? And you think about the name Jesus like, Joshua, Yeshua, the one who saves, the one who delivers. So you have Jesus the Christ or Jesus Barabbas? Who’s going to be your Savior? Who are you counting on or looking to for deliverance, right? That's what Matthew really brings you to that question, because they choose Barabbas instead of Jesus. And so what kind of revolutionary do you want. You have this nonviolent revolutionary who's willing to be crucified. That doesn't sound so appeasing probably for folks who are struggling in a moment? And you have this guy with a proven a proven track record, right? He's willing to put his life on the line, he's willing to fight for the people. What kind of revolutionary do you want?
And so I think that we have there this contrast and it has socio political implications for both Barabbas and Jesus right, in terms of the way in which they go about seeking liberation on Earth, God's reign on earth, Shalom and peace, right. How do we actually go about that? And that ties back to the whole idea of the things that make for peace, right? What are the things that actually make for peace? What is the actual way of Jesus? It's not just about going off to heaven, but how does Jesus want us to live in this world politically, right? Not partisanship but in terms of the politics of the kingdom of God. How do we engage in and practice that here on Earth as a counter witness to empire, and oppression, and domination, and cycles of violence how do we embody that here now? And so I think Barabbas actually invites us to see a radical Jesus, a non-violent, revolutionary Messiah, right. But (one) that's not willing to engage in destroying his enemies to get there, that he's got a different path of actually truly bring Shalom and there's a possibility that anybody can participate and be invited into that new vision and new dream.
Seth Price 53:02
Is the word and this is not really related but I'm curious. So I know when I spoke with Tom Wright, he used Paul and zeal and then he related it back to the Old Testament. I can't remember who he's related back to. But it's a term like Paul being zealous, is that related to zealot? Are those two words being used differently because when I hear zealous in that way, or like, I will kill you if you don't agree with me like you're the wrong type of Christian or the wrong kind of Jew, you gots to go? Is that the same way that they're using zealot for Barabbas?
Drew Hart 53:31
It's definitely related, zealous for God. And what do you got to remember like for that they're not just, I mean, on one hand, like it's helpful in some ways to say like their “freedom fighters” rights like to use that language
Seth Price 53:47
It is helpful when you want to be one.
Drew Hart 53:49
Right.
But if we're not careful, we lose sight that they are trying to be faithful to God. That they're doing this as their understanding of who they believe God is and what they believe God desires for them to do. So it is there out of their faith that they are operating and they are zealous for God in this right. Now we might question is this a meaningful interpretation in terms of how they're interpreting what they believe God is calling them too. But it is their religious faith and devotion to God, there's zealousness for God, that is driving them to this kind of action. And so it's not just a socio-political response it is actually a stepping out in faith that this is the kind of action that they believe God desires for them.
Seth Price 54:36
Yeah.
So I want to stay on that theme. And then I'll make this one of my last two questions, because I know I promised you an hour and I'm about to go over and I'm sorry.
Drew Hart 54:44
It’s no problem
Seth Price 54:46
So probably you have time.
Drew Hart 54:47
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seth Price 54:47
Perfect. Yeah, I've got the whole day, but I'm sure you don't. So in thinking of that, so when I hear you say that. So I think that both sides of the aisle, both sides of the aisle, both, especially here in America, all the aisles you know, the Green Party, the Democrats, the Republicans, conservatives, evangelicals, the whatever, and evangelical if that even means anything anymore, but that's a whole different hour long conversation. I think they do think that what they're doing if they're oppressing people, they're doing it because of the way that they interpret God. And if they're trying to fight for liberation, that they're doing it because the interpretation of Christ. And they both are coming from a perspective of I'm doing the best that I can, which I hear you saying the same thing for people that are trying to interpret their faith but just they end up being violent with it, because that's how they see their zeal, their passion for for God, driving them.
And so I'm going to give a hypothetical.
So hypothetically, January, whatever the induction day is, doesn't matter who the President is, if we have a new president, and that President wants to enact massive amounts of change, you're gonna have the church try to come alongside them, play politics, play power, and exert their influence to try to exact racial reconciliation-all kinds of change-and they're going to do it with their interpretation of I'm doing this to be righteous with God. And let's say that happens the opposite way. You know, the current president is still the President and the church continues to come alongside them, many of which have already vocally expressed their opinion on Black Lives Matter, racial reconciliation, segregation, a lot of things, and you can just google a lot of big name church leaders, and you will see that. And not just on race, but on gender and sexuality and all kinds of things.
Drew Hart 56:24
Yeah.
Seth Price 56:25
How does a pastor, a minister, a professor, or just a dude that happens to work at a bank, how do I discern well, that? And then how do I take that discernment and go, here's how I can speak against that in a way that helpfully exact change; or here's how I can instead push back against that showing compassion to those that are where I was 20 years ago? And I say that because I think you go both ways. I think people pivot on that pendulum, both sides constantly based on their emotions. I hope I'm asking that question well. I'm trying my best.
Drew Hart 56:55
I think so. And you can let me know if I'm missing it or not. Yeah, I mean, I think so diverse interpretations of what it means to be Christian are inevitable, right? I mean, with diverse people, diverse spaces and contexts, with diverse experiences, there's going to be diverse interpretations that's inevitable. There's going to always have to be ongoing conversations about what it means to be Christian. And we're gonna have to be dialoguing across difference, right? That's a necessary part of what it means to be the church is that the church can't just be in a silo it has to wrestle with the historic church, but also the global church, right? And we have to be conversing, dialoguing and reinterpreting in new moments with new understandings. It's just it's just an ongoing conversation that has to happen.
I guess the question number one is, what is the criteria that we use to base our conversations, to orient and norm our conversations right? I would argue and this is also an interpretation, right, I would argue that it's the life and teachings of Jesus is the norming norm for Christians.
Seth Price 58:10
How radical!
Drew Hart 58:12
It is actually radical though to say that right in some churches to say that the life of Jesus ought to norm our lives in some way or form, right. And so for others, that's not the case. It's, you know, maybe an interpretation of John 3:16 right, or Galatians and Romans interpretations, right of, you know, justification by faith and from a Protestant Reformation 16th century interpretation of that text. And so it's not settled, I think, that we will have to grapple with, and dialogue vulnerably and openly around what we see happening throughout all of Scripture, and how it climaxes in the person of Jesus Christ, and how that shapes our action in the world. At the point that we're at now, like I would argue from reading Christian history, that slowly beginning with Constantine and going forth from that Jesus continues to get further and further marginalized. And in terms of shaping our ethics, right, I would make a historical arguments, I would make a textual argument about what Jesus seems to be inviting us to do himself, right. How does Jesus describe the kind of life that we're supposed to live as a starting point, as a launching and the lens through which we read everything else?
But I do think that that is going to be the starting point that it has to be, that we're dialoguing about these things that actually really do matter. Because they shape how we live and act in the world. And we have to be dialoguing across difference and then we respond. And I think that in terms of, you know, the different partisan responses, you know, we've got to come to a point in the church where we realize we can't let the tail wag the dog. For so long we've allowed the platform of political parties that are really coming from elites to determine our Christian ethics and our practice, right. Our political imagination, literally-literally, I mean, just um, you step into a church and and usually within seconds, you know, this is a Democratic leaning church or a Republican leaning church, right. So it's completely shaped our imagination. And it's not necessarily to say I don't want to equivocate as though they're equally the bad equally the same, I actually don't believe that. But I also believe that neither of them reflect the kingdom of God. And we've got to have enough integrity and “rootedness” in God's reign that we can speak truthfully to everybody, right.
I, even in my new book, like one of the things I lament is I said, like, you know, in fact, I was just thinking yesterday is watching the John Lewis Funeral. Yeah, so number one, we have short term memory. So now “George Bush is so great” and things like that. He was a war criminal that thousands, if not millions of people died because of him, right! So just because he can be polite and civil. An even Obama like I, in my book I say like
I was disappointed the ways that we were not able to prophetically hold him accountable.
Yes. He's the first black president. Yes, he's pushing for things like health care and ways. And he was getting enormous resistance. And it made it hard for him to do his work. Yes, all these things. And he also worked with big banks, and did drone warfare and all that kind of stuff in ways that were problematic, right? And we have to have the integrity to not align ourselves with anybody in that kind of way where we're just toeing the party line, but bear witness faithfully. And so like, I may not, like I probably would disagree with the ways that many Republicans critiqued Obama. I think that they were actually more amoral, some of them right. But the fact (is) that that doesn't take away the risk possibility for me to have a faithful prophetic witness in the public square. It's a name truthfully and unveil evil that's happening society no matter who's in that seat. And I think that's important.
Seth Price 1:02:10
Yeah. Talking about John Lewis. So did you read the New York Times piece that came out I think yesterday?
Drew Hart 1:02:15
Yeah. Really briefly.
Seth Price 1:02:16
So there's a part in there. Hold on one second. Hey, baby. Tell you what, I'll come fix it in just a few minutes. I'm almost done. Okay. (daughter interrupts here)
Drew Hart 1:02:31
I've got little ones, so I know how that works.
Seth Price 1:02:33
Shut the door, baby. don't slam it. So what she said I don't know if you could hear or not, is my son broke the TV and now they can't watch the Thunderman. What's even more funny is I don't know how to edit video so this will stay in the video for the people on Patreon.
Drew Hart 1:02:51
A little extra, a little bonus footage.
Seth Price 1:02:52
Yes, I'll leave this part in. If you would like to meet my youngest daughter become a patron supporter of the show because she just showed up on camera. all messy hair and everything.
But in the New York time piece, here's a part that my pastor posted it and then I read it and I agree. So he said it gave him chills. So here's what it says John Lewis wrote in the days before his death, that
when historians pick up their pens to write the story of the 21st century, let them say that it was your generation who laid down the heavy burdens of hate at last, and that peace finally triumphed over violence, aggression and war. So I say to you walk with the wind brothers and sisters, and let the spirit of peace and power and everlasting love be your guide.
Like, it's just so powerful. But yeah, I watched some of that stuff. I watched President Obama's eulogy, I think, speech or eulogy? I don't know what you want to call it. Last question. I think, no, it's not the last question. There's a question I've asked everybody that has come on this year. So I have to ask that question. Because we're two thirds of the way through the year and I can't miss one now. But here's here's why asking is because I've heard you talk about it, I think on the Inverse podcast, or maybe some other podcasts because you're on there with Jarrod McKenna, who does a lot of good things and for those listening, you should go listen to that right now; he's doing a lot of things testing things on the other side of the planet. Um, but so for people like myself, I feel like oftentimes when people come in, and they're like, oh, now I'm woke. Now I have something to say, and not just about race, but about LGBTQ inclusion or this, that or the other. We come in and we just suck up all the air and say, “Now here's what we need to do”, because I've, in my arrogance of 15 minutes of learning, since I've now come to the light, I need to do X, Y, or Z.
So what would you say to people that are starting into this conversation and then now want to do something? How do they do that without actually sucking up all of the space for other people that have already been doing something like what is a wise way to begin to enter into that stream?
Drew Hart 1:04:40
Yeah, I mean, I always tell you know, when I go and speak to congregations, I always say first and foremost, like first you need to figure out like, who's been doing this work already? Just lay it out, do your research and who's been doing the work says one thing and you want to enter in as followers not not leaders, right? And you need to have the epistemological humility, right, that is humility in our ways of knowing as you enter in realizing that you don't have the lived experience and traditions (of) have been at this for a very long time. So your perceptions and analysis of what should be done or shouldn't be done is coming from a very limited context, right? It's not that you can grow in that. So it's not necessary that you have to be permanently babies in that space for the rest of your life. But it's not until you've kind of been reformed and have new lenses to interpret the world, that you can actually maybe contribute to it more meaningfully.
And until then, you need to see yourself as followers. You know, I think white people, especially in this case, in anybody in a dominant position, right, it would depending on what the issue is, have the tendency to see themselves as perpetual teachers. But what does it mean to invert those postures were the first are last and last the first and enter in as students and allow those who are most impacted those most vulnerable Who are most impacted to actually lead and guide the way forward? I think that that is really important work. And there's just so much unlearning to be done.
And that's why like, action and…so there's a temptation like different churches I've seen, like there's some churches where all they want to do is read books, right? And they will read books, book after book to do book study after book study after book study, and they see that as so work, right? It's just book studies. And this is kind of like college educated, kind of comfortable way of engaging problems. And if we read a book about it, then we've overcome.
And then there's other churches where, oh, we don't have time for that we need to act, right. So you start doing things, right. You got to do to do list. And both of those are problematic, right? And so we've got to find a way where real meaningful practice happens, where our action and our learning are coming together simultaneously. If it's just intellectual stimulation, right? I mean, that's it's empty if it doesn't also include action that we're learning and pulling into. And with just action, we're likely without the learning and unlearning and relearning, we're likely to, to do more harm than we even realize in the process while we're trying to do good. And so I think all of those things have to happen simultaneously. And that would also deeply impact the way that we enter into spaces and contribute in those spaces if we're doing our homework and acting, but acting through following right and solidarity, linking arms with those who who have been most effect.
Seth Price 1:07:37
I like acting through following. I like that. Yeah, come alongside and don't get in the front of the line, just fall in line, learn something, and then do something.
Being that you just met my five year old, I'm gonna phrase this question in a different way. The question I've been asking everyone this year is just a bigger broader concept of gods and so say I put her in my lap. I put her on the mic, and I say, Hey, ask Drew, whatever you want to ask him! And she says Drew who's…what is God? What is that? Like? What is that and you're trying to explain it? What are the words that you would try to wrap around that?
Drew Hart 1:08:10
I probably would point us, I would say that, you know, God is so much bigger than anything that we can describe. And so the best thing that we can do is look to where God has revealed God's self most clearly.
And so, for me, that would be Jesus and particularly Christ crucified, right? I think about 1 Corinthians 1 where Paul says that, in the crucified Christ, God's power, and God's wisdom is revealed, right. It's really fascinating that God's power and God's wisdom is revealed in the crucified Christ. And then goes on to suggest then that that helps us interpret how God is acting in the world. God has chosen the weak to shame the strong. God has chosen those who are considered nothing those who considered something right and so forth and so yeah, that maybe having handles on God is not something that we can really do, right? That's something beyond us. But what we can do is, what is it in Hebrew somewhere, it's like, but we do see Jesus right there in Hebrews and I think that that's it, we see Jesus and and we get a glimpse into the character of God. And we get a glimpse into the kind of ways that God works right?
So when people talk about this mean angry God, that's death dealing and just wants to punish people and we are like …ehh, but we see Jesus and it seems like he's for life. He's life giving and he's healing and restoring and empowering and so we get a very different vision of who God is and how God works. And then from that, that's how I understand how Gods Sprirt is at work in the world that God's Spirit is also then healing and restoring and loving and encouraging people to stand up and speak for truth, right? Because it's congruent with the very life and character of Jesus Christ. And so, for me that that's how I would answer that question.
Seth Price 1:10:15
Yeah. I like that. put people in the right spot, they hear this, they want to do something, they want to learn more about you, they want to buy all of your books available, where all the good books are sold, like where would you direct people to where are you active, you know, etc, etc.?
Drew Hart 1:10:28
Yeah, so first, you can find both of my books are available, one for pre order. So Trouble I've Seen is available anywhere books are sold, Who Will be Witness Igniting Activism for God's Justice, Love and Deliverance that is available for pre order and it's gonna be releasing soon. And so if you want to make sure that you get the first batch coming out with pre order now. And then yeah, you can find me I have a website drewgihart.com. And so they can find my website. There's a contact information that's where, you know, I get most of my speaking requests and stuff usually come from.
Seth Price 1:11:05
Thats not the way I did it but probably should have! (Laughs)
Drew Hart 1:11:06
(Laughs) Yeah not everyone. A lot of it comes through there. And then you can find me on the Inverse Podcast again, Jarrod McKenna and I, from literally opposite sides of the globe, just having really fascinating conversations with a wide variety of people from all over the world around Scripture and their stories and liberty of readings of Scripture and it's just a lot of fun. And so we think it's unique and just adds an extra layer of good conversation on the in the podcast world and so definitely encourage people to do that. You find me on Twitter and Instagram at Druhart, and also have a Facebook page that you can find me at as well. It's the one with the “GI” versus my regular profile.
Seth Price 1:11:54
To make those simple people listen, just hit pause, go down in the show notes. You lick whichever one you want to click on and then hit the button the like the follow the whatever the button you want to click his question about with Jarrod. So I don't even know what the timezone is because I think he's in New Zealand, like, when do you actually talk to people? Because I know I've had to get up at like five in the morning to talk to people at lunchtime in London, and like, three in the morning to talk to people in South Africa. Like, how does that even logistically work?
Drew Hart 1:12:24
Yeah, so he's in Australia. He's in Australia, same timezone, right. He's exactly 12 hours apart.
Seth Price 1:12:31
So one of you is talking at midnight, or two in the…
Drew Hart 1:12:34
Usually no. So what it is, is we usually, oftentimes it's around like 9pm for me on a Thursday, you know, and it'll be like, Friday morning at 9am for him cracked, because sometimes we flip it so then it's me in the morning, but it's usually been me in the evening and him in the morning just because of our schedules. But we have had some tricky times, especially with because of global guests, right? So we've had to adjust to do some stuff. So he's been up at like, 3am. I think he's had it a little bit worse than I have overall, just because of making it work for our guests.
Seth Price is 1:13:11
Nobody is keeping score.
Drew Hart 1:13:13
(Laughs) Yeah. Don't tell Jarrod that I'm getting the better this often. But yeah, so it's been fun. It's been a lot of fun. But it is also challenging in terms of scheduling. Yeah,
Seth Price 1:13:22
I get it. Yeah, I have some of the same similar challenges here where I'm like, Alright, so I work this hours, and then the kids are here. And then the pandemic has extra hours. So I can either record after 9:15 on any day of the week, or not at all, when I used to have a lot more flexibility. But um, yeah, I was just curious. We said like, I don't just logistically How the heck does that work, but Well, thanks again, Drew. I've really enjoyed the conversation. I'd like to talk to you again sometime, about whatever we want to talk about. If you're willing. But yeah, thanks so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed the conversation and I genuinely look forward to your book. I'm just gonna go right to the chapter on Barrabas just because yeah, yeah, that's right. And then I'll go back
Drew Hart 1:14:00
It's probably my favorite chapter.
Seth Price 1:14:05
Yeah, yeah. Well, good. Well, thanks again for coming on. Appreciate it.
Drew Hart 1:14:09
Take care.
Seth Price 1:14:23
I keep getting struck by the political balance between Brabus in Jesus Christ, I am both at times. So are you? And I've never thought about it that way. If there's anything that I've wrestled with the most, it's been Luke 19 passage, if I only understood, and that version of Christ as Barabbas. At recording, Drew's book came out a few days ago, and I immediately jumped to that chapter and it is illuminating, and it's fascinating. And, you know, so good. So, so good. I'm so thankful for people like Drew doing this work. There are many that stand alongside him, because this work is extremely valuable. I'm also extremely thankful for people like Olivia Georgia that would allow me to use her music into this week's episode. Those tracks are called be still every rise every fall, and remains. You can find links to her drew the book, all of the places that you need to be in the show notes or at the website for the podcast, or at the website for the podcast. And you can listen to those tracks on the Spotify playlist for the show, consider supporting the show on Patreon rate and review. I'm so thankful for you all. It's gonna be a heavy few months. I feel it. Just everything was school and it's gonna be heavy, so stay safe. Remember that your loved.
Talk to you next week.