Note: Can I Say This at Church is produced for audio listening. If able, I strongly encourage you to listen to the audio, which has inflection, emotion, sarcasm where applicable, and emphasis for points that may not come across well in written word. This transcript is generated using a combination of my ears and software, and may contain errors. Please check the episode for clarity before quoting in print.
Seth Price 0:00
Welcome back to the can I say this at church podcast? It's been a few weeks. Right. Let me give you some context. I had announced to the patrons a few weeks ago that I was going to end Season One of the show. I know you, you're sitting there going, Wait, season one. This is like episode 200. And some change. Yeah, I know. I know. We'll call that season one. I don't know how long season two will be. But it won't be that long. But um, yeah, due to a bunch of circumstances, I am going to take a small break from recording new episodes. Now what am I not taking a break from, I am still reading the books and doing the things that I need to do to prepare for new episodes, and I will soon begin recording those again. And yeah, there is a lot more context there. If you want to know more about that, you can ask a friend that's on Patreon. Or if you're on Patreon, you can go watch that video. more information than I want to put out here, but all that to say, this will be the last new episode that you hear for a while, I may come in with a couple random things from here to there. And I will still be putting out new content over on Patreon. As I read through books, and I have thoughts. Those will probably be more video based than text based and definitely not real traditional, quote unquote, podcasts. But anyway, now that I've said that, I am glad that you're here. So I brought back Matthew DeStefano. Now he is in the middle of writing a book about the wisdom of hobbits. And I hear you, you're you. You listen just now and you said hobbits and I am not in the mood for hobbits today. And I would, I would advise you that you are this is a very good conversation. And so with that without much anything else after that, for multiple things one is watching probably hear the rasp Enos in my voice. It hurts. Currently, I was recently diagnosed with the Coronavirus and it is beating up my throat. Hello. Let's rock and roll with this final episode of season one with my friend Matt. So I'm excited about this one, because I have absolutely no recording no idea where it's gonna go. Like literally, because I've read those books a long time ago. Yeah. And then I read your most recent article. But yeah, yeah. So let's, let's dive in. Let's do it. Just
Matthew Distefano 2:57
gonna say well, you know, my goal the book will be to not embarrass myself as a talking nerd and to bring people who don't necessarily read Tolkien like a nerd like I do. Get more interested.
Seth Price 3:10
I'm more of a Lewis nerd, like pre Londra all of all of that stuff. Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Matthew Distefano 3:15
So my daughter's the same way.
Seth Price 3:16
Yeah. Has she read all those?
Matthew Distefano 3:18
We've We've read together like three of them. She was in they did an adaptation of of the line the witch in the wardrobe for her ballet company. So she was last role she was the understudy to Lucy. Okay. I think and then she had a regular rolls. Yeah. Hmm.
Seth Price 3:41
Yeah. The Yeah. The so the Narnia books are not my favorite books of his. Okay. Yeah. So he's got he's got out of silent out of the side of the planet, prelaw. Andreea. And then the hideous string. Those are actually probably my favorite.
Matthew Distefano 3:58
Are those more science fictiony?
Seth Price 4:00
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like, I don't know how that's not a really good way to explain them. I don't know. They're pretty good. But they're not. They're still overtly kind of religious. Yeah, but in an almost a more metaphorical way if possible than than the Narnia books. So less allegory. Yeah. More metaphor. Yeah.
Matthew Distefano 4:21
i That's one of the kinds of things that puts me off to Narnia. It's like to this is too much of a one to one correspondence here.
Seth Price 4:31
Yeah, like one of the ones I want to say pre laundry. Yeah, like, it's almost like religious retelling of Plato's cave. Which is fun, but only if you like your philosophy. Anyway. Anyway, let's do it. Let's do it. Because we're all professionals here. Here we go. Matthew, welcome back to the show. I think this is two, this might be two. This is two might be yet to see. I can count big numbers to dos
Matthew Distefano 4:57
big numbers. Well remind Am I allowed to say cuss words here? Say whatever you like. Well, last time it was devoted as fuck came out. And now we're going to talk about something entirely different.
Seth Price 5:10
Yeah, you can say whatever you like my kids do listen to a few, but only if I flagged them as non explicit, but I've been known to not edit myself on this and I will not have you edit yourself. So, okay. Yeah, the only thing I edit is any, anytime there's stuff in a cup, sometimes that's bourbon. Sometimes it's water. Sometimes it's coffee, but it's always a coffee mug. It's just none of anybody's business.
Matthew Distefano 5:33
Well, I stopped drinking for my own health. So it is coffee, actually.
Seth Price 5:39
Oh, that's six, seven. That's a you're not going to sleep. It's
Matthew Distefano 5:43
we know it's also decaf, because I don't drink caffeine either. I'm like so straight edge except I smoke weed. I'm in California, so you can't get me. You can't get me in trouble.
Seth Price 5:53
It's legal in Virginia. Now you can grow your own Atlanta. I think you can have three is what you can grow. Okay, I think any more than three? And your technical three make him three huge ones. Yeah, I think any more than three. And you're like, you know, like a drug pusher? I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, not while you're here. We had been chatting back and forth. You've written like 87 and a half books, 5 million blog posts. A lot, a lot of them satirical, which I've been enjoying lurking in the comment sections on Facebook, when people were like, is this satirical? My favorite thing is really like, look at the tags at the bottom. Which makes me
Matthew Distefano 6:29
it's so like, I like the fact that people don't. I mean, I think the sign of being a good writer of satire is that people don't know if it's satire or not. My favorite thing is when they're like, I Googled this, like, you went out of your time you spent time looking for sources, and they're like, where's this? One person asked for a source on a piece that I wrote about a time traveler who was like, touting natural health instead of vaccines. And he died at like, 30 or something. Like, where's the source of this? I'm like, Oh, my God, it might not be real.
Seth Price 7:08
You should honestly make a small like repository of sources that you just cite back, like, just buy a domain name. And make that be like, just make up the sources. And that way people are like, Yeah, I looked at the source work. I bought the book. No, you didn't. You didn't buy the stock like you didn't. You didn't
Matthew Distefano 7:26
have an abstract and everything.
Seth Price 7:29
And all that could be fun. But a lot of time, it was like a lot. A lot of work. Yeah. Well let let the kids write the sources. I mean, honestly, it's right. Who cares? Because nobody's nobody's gonna fact check it anyway. Anyway, not while you're here. So we had settled on, like religion, theology, Tolkien, and maybe I'm saying all that wrong. What does Tolkien for those that are unfamiliar with anything outside of the movies? The Lord of the Rings movies have to do with religion, faith, theology, etc?
Matthew Distefano 8:01
Well, I mean, Tolkien was a devout Catholic. So take from that what you will. I think, when people will talk about Tolkien and Tolkiens Catholicism, as if Catholicism means one thing, I think they're being like, a little bit unfair to the faith, because, I mean, I grew up I grew up Protestant, evangelical. No, I'm not definitely assuredly, if you listened to the last episode, you know that but I grew up thinking just like Catholicism, Catholicism meant X, Y, or Z as it all Catholics would mean, it's kind of like this monolithic voice, but it's not just like any faith, tradition, sect denomination, it's it's not one univocal thing. And Tolkien I think, was really careful not to imbue his writing with his own beliefs. So I you know, I wrote an article. I don't know if it's a week ago or two weeks ago, I don't know when this comes out. But you know, in April, I wrote it. Asking the question, was Tolkien a Universalist? And my conclusion is like, spoiler alert, we don't know like, we don't. I point out to the fact that some of his characters had some prophecy about like a restoration of everything. And like all humans, all children have a Luva tar, which is the name for God and Tolkien's world. But not all prophecies were equal. And not all. Characters of of Middle Earth had the same philosophy. So I think that's where tolking takes himself out of the out of the writing entirely. And Middle Earth is its own thing. He's creating a mythology. And so there's questions that Tolkien himself doesn't know. He's taking the role of a translator of books that exist by people and characters who wrote the books from Middle Earth. Yeah. So he's not he's not writing. I mean, he's literally writing the Lord of the Rings but in his in his like, perch rail he's, he's editing or translating, I should say translating a book that's already written that he's calling the Lord of the Rings, if that makes sense.
Seth Price 10:08
Yeah. So the character you're referencing there is Tom Bombadil? Which correct? The, if that's what you're referencing, with the person that said the the reconciliation of something a minute ago? Is that who you're referencing?
Matthew Distefano 10:20
Yeah. Tom Bombadil is one of them. Yeah, he has a statement of that. And then there is. There's an elf who's having a conversation with a human and this isn't in The Lord of the Rings, it's I believe, in the Silmarillion, which is kind of like the mythology of the Lord of the world, where Lord of the Rings comes from? And who is it? It's, it's Finrod, an elf talking to a human, person and DRIF. And he says, if we're indeed the era keen the children of the one, then he will not suffer himself to be deprived of his own, not by any enemy, not even by ourselves. But all we can conclude from that is Finrod was a Universalist. Right? We can't say coking was I mean, because Tolkien created characters that he himself, you know, didn't know all the way through
Seth Price 11:15
the average listener. They've only watched the movies. What do you think would be most so you're working on a book for for all of this? Like, what's that
Matthew Distefano 11:25
I take more seriously than theological books.
Seth Price 11:28
But you're weaving theology into it correct? Of
Matthew Distefano 11:30
course, philosophy and ethics, and, you know, ecology and everything.
Seth Price 11:34
Yeah. So where does one go with that? Because, much like the contemporary of Tolkien, Lewis Tolkien, a lot of people have written a lot of stuff about them and his family is his son.
Matthew Distefano 11:44
Correct? Help editors different Tolkien was Yeah. Big involved in editing.
Seth Price 11:48
Yeah. So there's like, there's a plethora of work there. So, where do you even begin with that? If you're writing to the person, I think that would pick that up as either a Lord of the Rings fan, and they don't care about religion, or maybe it's a religion fan. And they're like, yeah, man, I watched the movies. And I watched the Peter Jackson cut, too. So that's that's extra got the extra extra extra movie. Yeah. Like, where do you even begin? Like, why were you starting with that?
Matthew Distefano 12:14
Like, why write the books? Who are my target audience?
Seth Price 12:16
Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, pitch me, because I've read Lord of the Rings. I prefer the books over the movies. That's not always the case. By the way, I'm not that person that says that. That's always true. But I do remember, because specifically, because they're just characters and story arcs that don't exist in the movies and pisses me off that they're out there. Because I became invested. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Because I became invested. And I'm like, Well, wait, what? Come on, you just skip things like you just you skip 300 pages? Who the hell are you? You can't just skip through under pages. Yeah. So how do you begin to attack all that? Like, what's what's I don't know how to. I hope I'm asking that correctly.
Matthew Distefano 12:51
Yeah, no, you are. It's I think that really is because I'm of the philosophy now that we should our epistemology, what we know what we know, how we know, we know starts with like, direct experiences, right. And so I have found peace, tranquility. Presence, pneus. Being now in living in the way that hobbits tend to live in Middle Earth, I make sure to point out that hobbits aren't perfect, they're insular, and they're cut sometimes xenophobic. And so I make sure to discuss that. And not all hobbits are, and we see, we see a story arc with many hobbits who can break outside of that insular worldview. You know, Frodo, Sam, Merry Pippin. And but I found Jason in gardening and being one with the earth and leading a more simple, less chaotic life. And I think that there's practical wisdom and in the book that I'm writing, and there's practical wisdom all in. I honestly think Tolkien was one of the greatest genius minds of our time. And so the movies are great, but I think there's something deeper going on there. And I think, I think it's as profound as any other mythology, even though it's fiction. So I see that and Tolkien would be put off by ever be having his works compared as an allegory. I'm not complete. I'm not allegorize being Middle Earth with the Bible, but I will say I will put it up next to the Bible as as profound of mythology that exists. I think there's just so there's so much there that you can that you don't really get from just the films and the films or the films are good for what they are. I wasn't a huge fan of the The Hobbit trilogy, but
Seth Price 14:47
didn't watch it. I did not watch it. It's It's okay. But mostly because Bilbo doesn't interest me as a carrier. Yeah.
Matthew Distefano 14:56
Yeah, I could. I could see that. Sure. And it's hard. To make I mean, The Hobbit was kind of a children's ish juvenile book and it's good for what it is. But it's certainly not three, three hour long movies, if that makes sense. Yeah, I've
Seth Price 15:11
never I've tried to read The Hobbit. I've never actually finished the book. Yeah, I just that character. To me, the best part of Lord of rings is he's not in the book all that often. Like, I mean, he's He's almost like the MacGuffin, that just begins the story. And then we circle back up eventually. Yeah. But you know, it didn't. Anyway, that's, that's me reading my stuff into it. So what is some of that? So, draw some similarities for those people that you're like, yeah, how can I read the similarity in which I've never read that book? either? What is the theology of, or the mythology, the, the the theologies of that world? And like, what is it that we're learning from that? Like, how are we garnering wisdom from them?
Matthew Distefano 15:59
Mostly, there's not, of course, there's not one theology throughout, you know, there's elves speculate on their relationship to the Vallarta to aloof avatar, these are the gods and sort of angelic creative being right, like the Pantheon in, you know, in their theology. But I mean, the first thing that pops to my head when you ask that is that so the fall of Middle Earth, or art, which is all of creation, right, all the middle F is just a portion of, you know, we're familiar with it, but it's just a portion, right? So the fall is because of some dissonance in a melody sung by these angelic type beings. And I kind of, you know, if you compare that to the fall of, you know, in Augustinian theology, or Calvinist theology, where we're totally depraved, where we're worms where we're all these sorts of things. I see as a musician myself, like someone who, you know, I still went to school for music. I, I like that analogy, or that understanding of a fall much better because, you know, there's this there's this created being Melkor, who goes by Morgoth later, he's kind of like, the big bad guy before Celeron he starts to sing this discordant this, this dissonant, like, probably even something worse than a minor seventh chord, you know, it could be, you know, a diminished something. And
Seth Price 17:39
E minor seventh is in all the Hillsong songs, though. So that has the only angelic cord, correct?
Matthew Distefano 17:45
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say anything else. But the So the point being is that Melkor sings is dissonant chord, this dissonant melody, and ILUV guitars, like there's nothing you can do that's going to thwart this beautiful creation. And so what is created is a visual and physical representation of the music. So everything you read in The Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, everything is like a it's it's the it's the melody that's been created in like real time, right? So all the suffering all the dissonance in the world is because of milk cores, original, you know, counter melody that that is dissonant. But even that is going to be worked toward this, this good in the end. And as a musician, it's like, yeah, if you just play, if you just play in your key, it it like a C major key, right? It's okay, I guess. But it's when you start to when you like, like a minor fourth in us, you know, so if you play an F minor in a C, that's out of key technically. But if you play that in the right way, it's like, oh, it hits you so much, more profoundly. So in the same way, even though we have all this shit that's going on in the world and great suffering. And in the end, it's going to somehow work out and the story is going to be more complete than if nothing bad ever happened. And I wouldn't I wouldn't go so far as to like universalize that theology as like a theodicy and an explanation for suffering. But I'd like the analogy much better because, you know, frankly, you know, the analogies for that kind of stuff. And Christianity is just so mad at best. And it is but an analogy again, it's a myth and mythology. So it's not necessarily like some theological thesis. It's just a way to explain why. If you're gonna explain suffering, and the fall and whatever is going on why so many things are messed up. I liked the analogy of a diminished chord A lot better than some of the vapid things we say.
Seth Price 20:05
Yeah, yeah, no, I don't know music theory, but I do play the guitar. I know like nine different ways to play like a B minor seven. There you go. And I will say, depending on the song, I'm like, Oh, yes, right up here, ninth fret, these three strings. This is, this is the B minor seven that belongs when the piano plays. I have no idea why. But I do know that feeling we're talking about, we're like, yeah, that hits, right. Like, that is so much better. There's no bass in it. It's all the middle notes. And I know middle notes is not the way to say that. But that's the way that it is in my head, you should see when I'm like when I'm singing, and I have to sing like in front of people. I can since I can't read music, I'm basically drawing a waveform on how I should be hitting the notes. But I have no idea how it clicks in my head. But for some reason, your analogy there it hits. So you say in your most recent blog post, that you are leaning towards talking being influenced possibly by George MacDonald? Why? Like I don't know enough about Tolkien or honestly George MacDonald to. To do that, though, I will say I've been I'm sure these exist elsewhere. But I've put two of these out. So I've been audibly recording his unspoken sermons, partly because I want to speak them even though I'm certain someone else has done them. But I've never read them. Never been influenced by them. So I've only done the first to the consuming fire. And I something in the midst child in the midst, I think is what it's called. The first two. Was that influence present in the writings of Tolkien like where are you drawing that from?
Matthew Distefano 21:39
Oh, I don't I think the inspiration for saying that was just sort of off Hannity, I don't. I would say there was definitely probably some, some indirect influences. I would say that because of Tolkien's relationship with Louis, who was highly influenced by MacDonald, that Tolkien would at least be kind of second hand and at least knowledgeable about him. George MacDonald was Scottish, I believe talking, I think was born in South Africa. I lived there for a short period of time, but then lived in the UK. I mean, I would I would say that some of some of aloo matar got, you know, God in the Silmarillion, we kind of have some of that same passion and fire. And I think understanding of, I think the understanding of sort of restorative justice, those themes are prevalent in Tolkien's world. And same with George MacDonald, for instance, you know, that the men of the East who fight alongside Sal Ron, at the end of The Return of the King, Aragorn pardons them, they never, you know, they never fought for the men of the West with the Elves and the dwarves and, and so Aragorn as a king figure, is, you know, tends toward the side of mercy and forgiveness and a sort of restorative justice in a way.
Seth Price 23:12
Yeah. Yeah. Fair enough. What is, so I want to ask some questions about just what I read in your last blog post, because I don't know any of these names like Morgoth. And I'm not even sure that I'm gonna say these, right. I'm also very thankful, I don't know if you know this or not, in all the extra free time that we have, when we do podcasts. I transcribe these. And so I'm excited that these words, I do not have to go and find in the similarity, because some of them are in the blog post. And if I can't find one, I'm just going to message you and say, hey, at minute seven, what the heck is that word? Like? I don't know what that is. Because it matters. They're real. They're real words that someone bled onto a page and so want to be respectful of that. Like, what is that character is that? I don't know what like what is that character, and I guess, to kind of contrast it in relationship to a sore on or even in relationship to the to the church or the faith of the like, what would that character like, what would that correlation be? For today?
Matthew Distefano 24:07
I guess? Well, okay, so Melcor Morgoth. So, I think Melcor originally, and then after the quote unquote fault generally goes by the term Morgoth. I mean, so he's like, be more of a so a part of the ironer ai n you are, it's like a trying to think of an analogy. Kind of like an angelic being or something in that sort of metaphysical ontological hierarchy fell first. You know, fell away from the melodic happy major pride major key music. And Sal Ron was, you know, like his chief Captain general in a way if you you know if you want to use like, show Harmeet terms, so I guess more got to be like, the devil of sorts, and Sal Ron would be whoever the whoever the demon the opposite of Michael the archangel. Gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. If they're gonna compare and contrast
Seth Price 25:21
Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So I don't want to say this. So is there a systematic theology to the world of token?
Matthew Distefano 25:34
I would do yes and no, I guess probably certain characters would have systematic theologies, and some would have none. Like hobbits have no religion at all. They're completely secular. In the book, I say that the only thing religious is their love of farming. So yeah, I would say they're their systematic, yeah, but maybe the elves would probably have more systematic theology than the hobbits and the dwarves are entirely different in the men of the men.
Seth Price 26:17
Yeah. So you begin the book, when is it out? Like when is when is it?
Matthew Distefano 26:23
I don't know, from all my money,
Seth Price 26:25
how much have you written?
Matthew Distefano 26:28
pushing towards half?
Seth Price 26:31
So where do you jump into? Do you open up? Like, are you? Are you just lifting directly from Lord of the Rings with the similary? And or the Hobbit? Or I assume there are other books that I'm unaware of? I've literally only read those three books. Yeah. Like, are you just lifting characters and then breaking them apart? are you lifting out themes? Like what like, how are you going about it?
Matthew Distefano 26:53
Yeah, so the, the title is called The Wisdom of hobbits. So I'm specifically focusing on hobbits though I do talk about all sorts of other things. But I'm, I'm focusing on them because I you know, Tolkien has this famous quote, and one of his letters letter 153. Maybe, where he says, I'm a Hobbit and all but sighs I like good tilter good, plain food, blah, blah. And I you know, I kind of see myself as a very tall Hobbit, I'd be the tallest by far I'm six foot three. I think the tallest hobbits were Merry and Pippin at four foot six or five. But no, so I'm jumping into themes, but I'm obviously coloring the pages with a lot of in depth character analyses, you know, footnoting you know, the hell out of it. But um, you know, I start out by talking about, you know, that life seems to be such where we'll enjoy our time the most if we have some sort of adventure, and if we have some place to call home. It seems that if we're too adventurous, and we don't have roots, you know, we we miss something. But if we're too homebound, and we never take any sort of adventure, then we become insular and xenophobic even. And I point that out in chapter two and talk about all the ways in which I mean Lord of the Rings starts off with a gossip session about how hobbits in Bywater and Hobbiton think that people are hobbits. And Buckland, which is like, I don't know, 50 to 100 miles away only are just these most strange, bizarre, they talk all sorts of shit about them. So they're very closed off. And and in order to break free from that we need hobbits that are extraordinary, like Sam and Merry and Pippin and Frodo and even Bilbo, your most favorite habit. But it's it's in that breaking out of their own tribes, so to speak, that they see that elves and dwarves and men aren't, aren't what we think. Right? That we don't have to be afraid of them. And we don't I mean, they could be friendly, they can be just like us, in many ways, different but just like us in many ways. So the practical application of that is you no contact hypothesis and the people we hate, we need to we need to be in contact with we need to see that there is a human being or a hobbit on the other side of that person that we presuppose is really this horrible, you know, creature. Yeah. But in order to break free from that, we need to have some sort of adventure, we need to step outside of our little tiny tribe.
Seth Price 29:25
Yeah. So how does one then stay away from the siren song that is the seducing nature of insular thought. Like, if you're a Hobbit or human, where you're like, Yeah, but this feels I like my echo chamber. And I'm really good at being here. And I have a place here. And I know where it is, like, how do you resist that siren song?
Matthew Distefano 29:51
That's a good question. I think that could be one of the most difficult questions to answer because it seems stuff that I don't want to say I don't want to fall for the trap of saying in this day and age, we've always done this. It's just that this day and age has kind of bred what we already are. So social media, we the algorithm, the algorithms feed. Our our people are messaging me, don't they know I'm on
Seth Price 30:21
Seth's show? I don't think
Matthew Distefano 30:25
they need to know. Especially media in this day and age that it feeds what's already there. And it kind of builds this echo chamber for us, though, we would find a way to, you know, I mean, Tolkien obviously wrote these before social media and the internet. So there was something to the fact that many of us do stay in our own little tribe, and it's very comfortable. And the breaking out is is really difficult. I think the biggest way we do that is with the help of others. So if we are homophobic, and our kid comes out gay, we're we're forced to make a choice of, it's going to be an adventure of sorts, because you're going to have to wrestle with this thing. And the sad part is that many times we resist opening up our boxes, and then we demonize our own children, and especially in the church, kicking out LGBTQ folks and kids into the streets. And so there's a huge risk in and all that, but I think just it's probably like a 10 pronged answer. I mean, we need better education, we need to read more books, we need to take seriously the fact that we don't even know what we don't know. So if you're talking like theology, and someone you've mentioned black liberation theology for the first time, and you're like, why does that even matter? Well, you can't answer that question. So you listen to the person who's talking about it. And then hopefully, you'll see I mean, so it how we get out of that? I don't know.
Seth Price 32:13
Yeah,
Matthew Distefano 32:14
you read my book and realize how wonderful Middle Earth is. Even though the shower is wonderful to you realize how wonderful Middle Earth is as well. And you, you won't know what you're missing. And so you go out and see Oh, Rivendale is wonderful. Or, you know, there's it's scary to Yeah, but you know, it's
Seth Price 32:33
Yeah, yeah, what does? What does Empire work look like? For Hobbiton?
Matthew Distefano 32:42
Oh, it's, there's, it's not I mean, Empire would be, like a silly phrase to use or word to use. They're very. So hobbits have a Thane and a sheriff. And the Thane is more like the Queen of England. Now. It's kind of just the novelty, there's not really any real power in there. The sheriff is kind of a de facto police force, but mainly like, just delivering the mail and squashing, like maybe most disputes or, or taking care of family to family. They're very, I don't want to say anarchist, because they certainly, they certainly do well, when a king of the whole region is, you know, on their side, you know, protecting and everything. So they would support a monarchy in a way, though, internally in the Shire, there, there's no so I mean, there's no such thing. It's um, it's a very laissez faire type of situation going on there.
Seth Price 33:54
And so the thing basically owns most of the property, and then gets all that tax credit from it.
Matthew Distefano 34:02
If I don't think the thing owns any of the property, you just said
Seth Price 34:06
like the Queen of England, I just wanted to make the you know, the proper Oh, yeah. Yeah, why not? Okay, well.
Matthew Distefano 34:14
But in terms of like, not actually doing much, nothing is kind of just, you know, yeah, well,
Seth Price 34:20
they make the rounds, you know, shake hands, kiss babies. Yeah, do the things. So, putting oneself in a mindset of a habit. What would that type of a person stand to gain from, I guess, transporting their mindset into the world that we live in now? Like, what is there to be gleaned? That is good. From living like a hobbit now from living the way you and I do in the world that we are, if the inverse was the same, say someone is a hobbit writing a book about the world that you live in Matthew, and they're like, yeah, the wisdom of humans. What would they bring back?
Matthew Distefano 34:59
I think that? Wow, that's a great question. I would hope that they would encourage one another. Like we were talking about to step outside of their own little world, still love it and to still cherish it, but to step outside. And I would hope, though, I think we'd fail because we fail at this, I would help that because hobbits hated industrialization. I guess I wished or I'd hoped that the hobbits would find the humans who are doing a more ecologically minded type of industrialization. Though I think humans do fail at that as well.
Seth Price 35:48
I'm not sure how to do ecologically minded industrialization does that I feels like an oxymoron.
Matthew Distefano 35:55
Yeah, I mean, but I think there can be I think there's companies who create products on a bigger scale who have respect for the globe, though. I don't think they're the biggest companies and corporations but I would you know, I there's got to be companies that I know. I mean, like clean canteen is a local canteen company that is gotten pretty huge, and they ship worldwide. But they have a very aggressive ecological focus. So you know, this isn't clean canteen. But you know these big canteens? Yeah. So I know, it can be done, though. You know, like I said, I think hobbits would run into humans who predominantly fail at that. So I guess that doesn't answer your question. I, honestly, you know, I'm a cynic. So, I love human he, I love humanity. And I told like most humans and sad. I mean, maybe they'd be like, Oh, they got some cool cars, they can fly. That's cool. They went to Mars and flew into a disc shaped rocket. Maybe that's cool. But I don't think they would think that's cool. at all I
Seth Price 37:13
did have been paid for on the back of books. So basically, Lord of the Rings, finance, probably 3% of that,
Matthew Distefano 37:21
with how many books they sell. Yeah, I know, I didn't finance much of it.
Seth Price 37:26
Yeah, in some small shape and form. Yeah, JRR, Tolkien helped fly a penis rocket into into outer space. And like a
Matthew Distefano 37:35
you write that book, I'm gonna stick with my I'm not writing that book.
Seth Price 37:40
Because I don't know how to title that. Do you remember like last year, I had all those weird ad breaks, like he would just randomly be something, we're not doing that. Instead, I thought I'd do this, I need your help. If you're able to head on over to the website for the show, there are two things that you can do. One is you head over the website, you click the Patreon button or support button, I forget what I call it. And you jump in there, those people helped make the show a thing so that you can listen to it right now, to the easier one, you could just leave a rating and a review on the podcast app of choice that you currently use. Either one of those is fine. But I would love it if you would do either one, specifically the rating and reviewing it's an exponential thing, that the algorithms pick it up. And that's just math. It's just compounding on top of it. So anyway, all that to say, that was it. That was the ad break. And now we're going to get back into it. So what has been the biggest change for the way that you kind of see faith and religion as you've been working your way through the wisdom of hobbits?
Matthew Distefano 38:56
Seeing, seeing God and seeing all the mystery and complexity that we talked about God and theology is just so simple in like, tending to a garden. I mean, like if God is everywhere God is in the garden. And so how more like intimate can you get than putting your hands in the dirt and growing something? I think that the biggest takeaway, the biggest thing I think of when I'm thinking of hobbits is just there too, talking to actually describes it as they have like an ability to disappear in the landscape because of their magical relationship with the earth. And I know that's some like deep hippie shit, but I appreciate that and I've I don't know I don't do church. I don't do prayer. But I think that the the closest I would ever get is listening to you know, some nice music While in the garden on a on a nice day planting or harvesting, or fertilizing or doing whatever I'm doing to me, like, that's way closer to church and way closer to God than I ever got leading worship playing those Hillsong songs.
Seth Price 40:18
If you don't, I mean, well, you don't like E minor seven. So, I mean,
Matthew Distefano 40:23
I did I liked like, I liked one of their songs, maybe the we played a lot of the Hillsong songs do they
Seth Price 40:29
all do? All the justice? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So when I think of hobbits, and you can, you don't have to agree with me, because that's the nice thing about what I think I, I see them as fearful beings, like, constantly terrified of everything, because everything is new, like even reading through the Hobbit, like every experience is like, terrifying. Like, I'm thinking like a five year old on roller coasters you don't belong on like, every one of them is terrifying. And I think that that fits well, with the world that we live in. Like, everything seems to be marginally terrifying. I mean, quite literally, their two countries that yesterday could get fuel for, for themselves, and today, they can't. That's terrifying. You know, like, I could throw out so many examples, right? What do we have to gain from the way that a hobbit type person approaches fear, anxiety, trauma? Like, what could we glean from that and apply for ourselves now?
Matthew Distefano 41:39
Well, I think we would have to focus on certain hobbits who are able to move through that, like, my favorite, my favorite character, Sam. Sam is the epitome of fearful like he's afraid of everything. And this isn't in the book when he but in the movies, he's like, this is the farthest I've ever gotten away from the Shire.
Seth Price 41:57
Right here, and he does stop. He's like, right, I just, I don't want to like why did you stop? Well, because that blade of grass right there?
Matthew Distefano 42:05
Yeah, yeah. I don't remember that. Being in the books. I know. It's not actually but I don't know. But no, it isn't. But but the point of that is like, um, yeah, it's Sam goes from this very scared gardener, who has like, ideas of lysine elves, and all this kind of stuff. To, you know, be known as Sam was the brave, you know, the one who carries Frodo up the mountain when Frodo couldn't, you know, make it the one who rescues Frodo from Kiriath own goal after he's, you know, after Sheila gets to him, and then orcs. So I think that as like the archetype that they go from being like the most, like you said, scared, fearful type of creature, being raised, whatever you want to say, to, if they can get, if they can get through it, we can, too. We can, if they can push through that to a place where they confront their fears, and we can too. And I think that's a good lesson to take away. What's interesting is a lot of the hobbits that are left in the Shire, when they come back after a year of journey into Mordor and back. They're exactly the same as when when they left I mean, the scouring of the Shire happens, but many I mean, many of the habits are just the same that you know, they have they haven't changed in a whole year. In fact, many of them sided with Solomon. And you know, if, for those who have just watched the movies, they don't just come back to the Shire and everything's happy. I mean, the scar the Shire has been like raised, the trees have been cut down. So on doesn't spoiler alert, so Armand doesn't die in the two towers. He and with the help of a bunch of hobbits, like destroy the Shire. So many of them. I don't
Seth Price 43:59
remember that. It has been a tremendously long time since Jackson leaves all of that out. Well, I haven't read that movie. I've read that movie. You can't read a movie, have a watch that movie, he read the script. I don't want to do that. I did not.
Matthew Distefano 44:16
I think the point the point is, is that the only hobbits that really changed are the ones that that face their fears and stuff, but I mean, Frodo was very fearful as well. And you know, there's there's a great line to like Bilbo before he goes on his adventure. He's like, he's, he's like, Absolutely not. I'm not going with these dwarves. And then it says something took ish rose up in him. And you know, Paragon took comes from a family of brave hobbits the old took the story goes that he chopped the head off a goblin and it went 100 yards and that's how they develop that's how they invented golf. There's something within the hobbits that they they're very fearful to begin with, but they can overcome it. And I mean that again, I'm working toward this, like I I see Ukraine and Russia and climate change and like scared shitless. And rightfully so like, there's like, Oh, yeah. You know, World War Three might happen. Yeah, we're not. When we might use nuclear weapons, you're like, Jesus Christ, like that is terrifying.
Seth Price 45:23
Yeah, the amount of times that that comes up in adult conversation in a real way. And both of us at the end of the night like, not you and I necessarily, but even like at work, and I'll be like, yeah, and the other was like, yeah. And then we're just like, yeah, so you want to, I mean, you want to buy this house? Like, I'll, I'll figure out how to lend you the money. I mean, might as well, because I don't know. I get just it's just such a weird world. Very weird. Yeah. So want to be respectful of your time. And I will say, I've enjoyed this, mostly because I like flying by the seat of my pants on on something that I like, I just, they're more fun conversations. I have no idea how you feel when you're doing an episode. But I really enjoy everything on the fly.
Matthew Distefano 46:05
Well, you you ask great questions. So you've really made me think. Well, I normally don't like to do that. I just like to
Seth Price 46:14
I don't like to think I just want to write my satire garden. Leave me the hell alone. It's when the garden right. So I asked this if everyone although I think the last time you were on I probably did not ask you. It's been in the last few years. So when you try to put words around whatever the divine God, I don't care what word you want to use. They're like, what is that?
Matthew Distefano 46:40
That's a small question.
Seth Price 46:41
Right? Just small, tiny, like question to end with.
Matthew Distefano 46:46
I've been really wrestling with that. lately. I'd say in the past year, especially. I sort of now see God as my pure potential in which all reality can like flow into. So if Does that make sense? Probably not. I don't I don't believe in a personal God that I can talk to any longer. I don't believe even necessarily so much. It's tough because if God has a will or a personality, I just don't have any experience of that. I only have an end if I do have an experience of it. I can't indice, I can't find where it's indistinguishable from me at the core of my best, because I certainly have a will. That's not great. But I feel like when I'm like in line with being empathetic and compassionate, I don't find that that's just indistinguishable from my own will rightly oriented toward goodness. So I I I don't know if I care anymore.
Seth Price 48:17
Is that bad for a? No, it's fine. We like to say that a church can I say this at church certainly can. Honestly though, I
Matthew Distefano 48:24
don't know if I care about theology in that way. I care about being a good human and being loving and compassionate and empathetic. And I care about the world in which I live. And I think that the question of God becomes almost like too abstract for me to care any longer.
Seth Price 48:46
Yeah, no. Fine answer. I'll tell you why. I asked that question after I'm done recording. Because there is a method to that madness. So the books out whenever it's out Who knows when it's out? Because I don't know how I've never written a book. I've had thoughts I've should write a book and then you realize that it's more work than I want to do and Washington says you watch Netflix instead.
Matthew Distefano 49:11
Still Netflix and chill?
Seth Price 49:12
I don't I Netflix in sleep. Like I literally turned it on. Although I've been in this is a guilty pleasure, although I'm enjoying it less and less. But I've been started so Top Gun is back on there. And I don't know why but I've really liked that movie. I've been I think I think I realized it on I was watching it on my lunch break today. Is it the homoerotic undertones? No. It's the jets like I enjoy watching the jets and I actually thought about it on on my way home from work today as like why am I enjoying this movie so much? Because I am not. The story is pretty crappy. I'm not a big fan of a lot of what happens in it. But I used to go to like air shows out where I'm from in Midland and Odessa, Texas, and there was like B 52 bombers that would fly in and like like professional I would call them athletes like those fighter pilots that are sustaining like 910 Eight whatever G's and doing his acrobatic like something about that. Like, I'm like, Man, that is freaking amazing that one a human can withstand it, but to we built machines that can do it. And yeah, it's just a little bit in the movie, you know where they're doing the dog fights and I think it's that is what I like. And it doesn't matter. I don't even know why I brought that up. Oh, Netflix and chill. It's your fault. So you do a lot of things on the, in the globe. Where do you want people to go to engage into the things that that you happen to be doing?
Matthew Distefano 50:37
Oh, well, you know, social media is fine. My website is all set. free.com and all of my social media handles are just on a little icon because you know, I have a web guy who's good at his job. Yeah, everything is like linked through there all the books are there the podcasts are there.
Seth Price 50:54
Yeah, speaking of social media, I meant to ask you this and I didn't what would be the social media of choice from the choices that you have today for for a habit?
Matthew Distefano 51:05
Oh, the social media of choice or a habit? Yeah.
Seth Price 51:07
Of the ones that we have today. You know, everything from you know Tik Tok to Facebook's Yeah, what would be the one where you're like, Yeah, this is my jam.
Matthew Distefano 51:14
I just can't imagine one tick tock. is Pinterest social media. I just be paying pinning recipes to second for food.
Seth Price 51:24
Yeah, fair enough. I think it counts as a social media. I think it is. I
Matthew Distefano 51:27
would the first one that popped into my head would be Pinterest.
Seth Price 51:31
That's not a word that I thought of in a long time. Pinterest,
Matthew Distefano 51:34
maybe a maybe a very small group and on Facebook group.
Seth Price 51:41
It's a ridiculous. Like I was seriously considering it.
Matthew Distefano 51:45
I'm very I'm serious, very serious about this. Pippin in would probably have a really idiotic Twitter account. I'm gonna guess. We'll have a talk or something.
Seth Price 52:00
Either way, I like to end on laughter. With that. I'll give you back your evening. Thank you, man. I really appreciate and I look forward to reading the book because I do like those characters. And I like that world.
Matthew Distefano 52:13
My goal in the book is to make the world like, even more likeable for those who aren't huge fans like I am. Yeah, or huge nerds, as my wife says, as she rolls her eyes as buddies
Seth Price 52:26
raise a nerd about something. Just everybody's heard about something like I've watched people spew out fantasy football and fantasy baseball facts. And I'm like, why are you doing fantasy baseball? It's already a 300 game season. It's not but it might as well but like, what do you come on? Yeah,
Matthew Distefano 52:40
well, it's it's funny that the the, the people who made fun of the nerds now have like the most nerdiest thing, which is fantasy sports. Yeah. That's like, Yeah, okay. Well, I like sports, too. But just admit here. We're all nerds.
Seth Price 52:54
Yeah, yeah. With that. Good, good. Good. Well, thank you again, man. Appreciate it. Yeah, thanks. Now, I haven't added it up. But there are hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of podcasts on the internet. And I am humbled that you continue to download this one. This is your first time here. Please know that there are transcripts of these shows. Not always in real time, but I do my best. And if you go back in the logs, you can find transcripts for pretty much any episode that you'd like the show is recorded and edited by me, but it is produced by the patreon supporters of the show. That is one of the best if not the best way that you can support the show. If you get anything at all out of these episodes, if you think on them, or if you you know, you're out and about and you tell your friends about it or Hey, mom, dad, brother, sister, friend, boss, Pastor, here's what I heard. What are your thoughts on that? If this is helping you in any way, and it is helping me consider supporting the show in that manner. It is extremely inexpensive, but collectively, it is so very much helpful for you. I pray that you are blessed. You know that you're cherished and beloved. We'll talk soon